A Deep Dive into the Human Psyche: Creativity, Parenthood and Modern Challenges

Speaker 2: 0:08

Hello everyone and welcome to the Curious Ulsterman podcast, the podcast designed to equip you with the tools and wisdom you need to fravours an adult. I am your host, johnny aka the Curious Ulsterman, and today I am joined by my good friend and repeat guest, marcus Fortin. In today's episode, we discuss the life advice that Marcus has for people coming into college. We also discuss his college right for you, how history is not written by the victor and it does not repeat itself, and the skill set you require to be a decent human being in the world. But without further delay, here is today's episode with my good friend, marcus. Marcus brother, welcome back to the show. It's been too long.

Speaker 1: 0:54

It has. Yeah, it's been January of 21. No way.

Speaker 2: 0:59

Surely not.

Speaker 1: 1:00

Yeah, I was looking at it yesterday evening because I wanted to make sure I didn't repeat myself too much. So I was like, well, I should go back and kind of check what we had listened to. Yeah, it was January of 2021. My boy hadn't been born yet.

Speaker 2: 1:12

Yeah, well, both your kids hadn't been born yet.

Speaker 1: 1:17

The second one hadn't even been thought of yet.

Speaker 2: 1:19

Yeah, that's true. Yeah, you know what I was actually thinking about this yesterday. I was like I'm pretty sure Marcus has been on the podcast more than once, I'm sure of it. I lost track of like 60 episodes.

Speaker 1: 1:35

Yeah, I saw it. You're like really cranking through it. You got like 60 episodes. That's impressive.

Speaker 2: 1:41

Yeah, yeah, I appreciate that man. It's been putting in the work. Yeah, I have been At the same time. I've definitely had to adjust. I love podcasting, I love the fact that the audience tune in every week, the conversations I have and the people I get to chat to. But, man, it's a slog. Sometimes, especially trying to be creative, you get that creative fatigue or, within podcast circles, pod fade as it would be called. What is it Pod fade it's called? It's kind of like you get past that honeymoon period of, say, four or five episodes and you're like, oh wow, you've got to add it, you've got to be consistent, you've got to come up with constantly new creative content. It's a slog, but I don't want to sound like I'm complaining here. I'm very grateful for everything I have and I wouldn't change anything. But, man, yeah, there's been totally transparent with you and especially the audience. You know it's definitely been two or three weeks where maybe I haven't posted something and that's because, a taking full responsibility, my own bad planning and B having a full time job. It's just like my lack of planning then, combined with the full time job, just meant like I literally don't have the time to record. And you know, that is a bit of a disservice, I think, to some loyal listeners who do tune in weekend after week. But going forward, well, actually it's already been implemented. I'm just podcast. I'm releasing episodes every two weeks because that there allows me to podcast, stay consistent. But it's far more manageable. Certainly in the future, if I'm very fortunate with the hard work and the podcasting does take off, you know, maybe I could go back to weekly. But you know, trying to maintain a decent quality, consistency and still enjoy it, I mean it's a simple change I had to make to move. Yeah, I mean that's important.

Speaker 1: 3:50

I had a guy come up to me the other day well, he's actually my boss, but I guess so I'm kind of the fitness person in the office, like I have a kettlebell in my cubicle, you know, and people pop in to ask me something and I'll be like doing burpees or something. I'm that guy, you know, like I get the weird, but my boss comes up to me and he's like he's like man, I'm getting a gym membership and I'm going to go back to it. And well, he used to play football in American football and college, right. So he's kind of the fit guy, but he's had a kid. He's had a kid, he's married, he's let himself go, he got comfortable. So he's kind of like I'm going to get back into it and he's telling me his plans about what he's going to do and the first thing I asked was like, well, does that sound fun to you? Like, does that sound something, sound like something sustainable? He's like well, no, but you know, I just got to get in and grind and I'm like you know, grind, yes, I respect the ground, I love the ground, I live the grind. However, it's sometimes it's not sustainable, right? So, like I've told him, I'm like maybe find, find something that's fun to you, like CrossFit or like functional fitness or, oh, you don't like to run, don't don't run, find your cardio somewhere else, like Jiu Jitsu or something like that. And so, with you, say, creative fatigue and like things that I get it. I'm, I write a lot like as a, as a historian and a student of history. That's one of the things that I do the most besides read. So sometimes I might. I might be writing about something that I love. It's one of the funnest things that I could possibly be doing. However, I get burnout, I get writer's block. I sit in my office at my desk and say no, I do not want to frickin do this, you know? Like what's it all for? Why am I even doing it? Cause sometimes, like you said, it's a slog, like I just don't want to do it. But at the end of the day, like have you? Have you read Stephen Pressfield's book the war of art? No, I haven't actually no man, you should. You should check that one out. He talks about resistance with a capital R and, like everything we do in life, we're going to come up on resistance and that's the forces working against us. And like he's real big into like the muse and like these kinds of like, like, uh, mystical aspects of things, which I mean take it or leave it, whatever to each his own. But like these forces that are acting against us, a lot of times for me it's within myself, right, like my. My procrastination, like that comes from a lot of times. Fear, like I'm afraid that what I'd churn out isn't going to be worth a damn. You know like, or I have no evidence to support the fact that I'm going to get anything less than a bee on a paper. However, I'm afraid that I'm going to get less than a bee on a paper, right, like it's one of those types of things, my own fear, my perfection if it's not perfect, then screw it, I'm not going to do it Like that's just an excuse, right? So the resistance a lot of times is born out of fear for me. I mean, I don't know about you, but that's where it comes from for me.

Speaker 2: 6:58

Yeah, For me it's. I don't like admitting this because it's a character fault, but it's in being transparent, it it is a case, I think, of just laziness for me sometimes, whereby I would much rather sit down and either read a book, or something I really enjoy is playing Xbox with my brothers, because we're all over the place. We no longer live at home. I live in one part of England. My youngest brother lives in a five hour drive away from me, and then my other brother is back home in Northern Ireland and our holidays we seldom see each other. About how we communicate, how we spend time with each other quote unquote is video games, and that's so much more fun than sitting down to reach out to people, to generate emails, to generate content, and it's it's. It's interesting. I watched a random Instagram video the other day and I can't even remember who the dude was, but he was this mega successful dude and he was talking about how you know there's your feelings, and then there's your mind, and your feelings tell you in the morning or in the buildup to a really difficult task oh, you don't want to do this, Take the easy road, Take the easy way out. And your mind is telling you. No, do this. So make, make a short term sacrifice now for the longer term gain and win. And that's thankfully where my mind is the majority of the time. But it's I'm so glad we had this conversation because, see, today, like an hour before this call, I don't know why, I was just really I don't know, really not, I don't want to say go as far as say down, but I was very tired, I was very lacking in energy, I was very like I was doing podcast. I was like what's this all for? See that, when you said that, like that was exactly what was running through my head, Like why am I doing this? What is this all for? Yeah, I enjoy it. I'm not going to message me getting benefit out of it. You know, I don't know, I'm sure I have been very helpful to people somewhere, but you do just go through these weird phases, don't you? It's just like what is this all for man? Like where is the fruit?

Speaker 1: 9:22

That's the past few years of my life, like since, academically speaking. Like, yeah, so finishing up my masters, I'm about this, I'm about to go for the PhD, right, and there are times when I'm say so. I'm an American historian, I study US history, specifically the South Southern United States, and I'll be sitting in a class about the ancient Mediterranean, the Bronze Age, bronze Age trade, and back on mine. I'm like I do not care about any of this stuff. So there are a lot of times where I just have to check the box right In order to get the degree. So I'll be sitting in these classes thinking to myself oh well, I got this going on at home, I got this job I got. Like my fitness is falling off. I need to somehow log 30 miles this week. Like how the hell am I going to balance all this stuff out? But at the end of the day, it doesn't matter how we feel. Sometimes, like there are times when I literally say in my head it doesn't matter how you feel, and then I just have to get the shit done. Like I made the commitment I said to myself, like I made the commitment to myself, I'm going to get this degree. So what do I do Lie to myself, because you know, if we, if we say we're going to do something to another person and then we don't do it, what are we? We're a freaking liar. Why don't we treat ourselves that way? I think Jordan Peterson talks about it, you know, like treat yourself like someone that you are taken care of or whatever. I'm paraphrasing, obviously, but he talks about that in his first book, it's like. Or his second book we should be also treating ourselves like people that we're, that we're talking to and interacting with every single day. Because I think he also talks about how we are multiple. We're multiple people all wrapped into one, because we are also developing our future selves. So we're doing something now that's going to benefit our future self. So it's easy to lose sight of that for me. Like, I tend to think, like, why the hell am I doing this? But then I think, okay, well, it's so that five years from now I can be making like a hundred grand a year or 200 grand a year, or whatever the case may be. I need that reminder, and a lot of times I'll say, ugh, I don't want to do this. And then I can even put it off sometimes, but like, well, that's a problem for future markets. You know, I don't know where I picked that up, but that's become like my big thing lately because I get overwhelmed with all the different things which used to. I get that paralysis by analysis thing going. I would say I've got way too much crap going on. I'm just not going to do it because it's too much. I play the victim, freak out a little bit and then just not do the things, not stay true to myself and what I promised myself. But then now I'm at a point where I can say, okay, take a step back. Do I need to worry about that in this moment? No, I have confidence in myself that I can handle it when the time comes. So that's a problem for future markets. Like, for example, in these grad school classes we do a lot of discussion. It's a room full of historians talking about history and giving their own two cents about stuff. So sometimes it gets heated. Like a couple of weeks ago the F bomb was dropped probably like six times in one conversation and then at the end of the day we were all happy and laughing when we left the class. But like it was a heated debate about something obscure within the Mexican revolution right, which is hilarious. But, like in these classrooms, I have to be 100% on my game, because it's part of the grade, but also because I'm building my reputation as a historian. It starts with the people right around you. So, leading up to the class, I'll get nervous, like I bought this Garmin watch and it tracks my heart rate and tracks my stress levels and all these things, and like I'll look every day. I'd analyze the data because I just think it's cool, and I'll be like dang. I was like super duper, stressed out the hour leading up to that class and it's because I'm like oh no, what if someone says this? Or what if someone says that? What if I bring up a point that I think is really, really great and then someone just tears it down? And then what I've gotten into now is I'm like okay, well, I'm good at the discussion and I've got evidence to support that, because every time I'm in discussion I do well. So that discussion is a problem for future markers. I don't need to worry about it. Right now I have class in three hours. Right now I need to be with my boys. Right now I need to be with my wife. Right now I need to focus on work because when the time comes then I can focus on the debate, because there's no reason for me to believe that I'll screw it up. But I know I kind of got off on a rambling tangent there. I blame the coffee, yeah man.

Speaker 2: 14:17

No, that was really cool actually. And before I forget, if I do yawn at any point during this chat, it's not because you're boring. You never are Short tangent myself, short tangent myself. So I'm currently at home in Northern Ireland and, as much as I love my dog, it has this weird habit that it will not eat it's dinner when we put it out for it. So let's say I don't know six, seven o'clock, and it'll then get me up anywhere between 1am and 2am to go and take a large drink, go outside to do its business and come back in and eat its dinner at two o'clock in the morning. And I'm like you stupid dog Sounds like my son, sounds like my son, but your son, though it's understandable. This dog is like a lap or 12 years old and it's like I don't know what.

Speaker 1: 15:13

He's been conditioned to know that he can get away with it. He knows that you're not going to reprimand him, you're not going to refuse to take him out. He's like look, if you're going to give me all this leeway, I'm going to take advantage of it, man, because this is what I like to do, and you know that's a good lesson. You know to be taught Like when it comes to personal boundaries with other humans, man, if we let people take over our time, you know, like saying no is an acquired skill, so, like that, there's a lesson to be learned there, right, like the more we say no, the more we condition people to be like, oh well, I better not come with him, come to him with some stupid shit that I know is some stupid shit because he's just going to say no, you know, because that's because he's got a bunch of stuff going. You know what I'm saying.

Speaker 2: 15:58

Yeah, yeah, there, it absolutely is. Brother, there is. I mean it doesn't help, but she's a herbri digital, ask him malamut. So I think she gets quite warm in the house and once that, once that like couple of minutes out in the cold air, very fond of the kitchen tiles where she likes to disappear all that heat. But I get it Fantastic, dog. But yeah, that's why I'm somewhat tired, but it's interesting. You say that you know about. Well, in fact the whole conversation is sort of. I think a foundation of it has the changes we've both been through in the past couple of years. Like I've been through some big creative changes and growth changes and that kind of thing. But you know you've been through some big shit yourself in the like becoming a dad twice. You know, I definitely love to hear more about how your whole history degrees going, because I know the last time we chatted on the phone you know you were making big waves there. But yeah, just out of curiosity, what's any new perspectives on life since becoming a dad for the second?

Speaker 1: 17:05

time. Yeah, like the first time actually. Well, you kind of gave me a primer for this before we started talking. So, like I do have some thoughts on that, because, man, I ran it by my wife and I was like, man, what all do you think is changing? And I'm sorry I lost my track of all there what all do you think has been changed? What have you learned from all this? You know, because it is, it's a huge, drastic change. Like I didn't think that it was going to be such a big deal, right? So there's a lesson to be learned there Don't underestimate change, don't underestimate the impact of change, even the smallest, seemingly small changes. So I was like, okay, I've already got a, I got a kid. He's coming up when, a year old, I know what to do, I'm a pro. Now this moment came along and I'm like, oh shit, you know, like everything just went boom, flipped upside down. The emotional challenges have been really hard. Like I'm good with physical, challenging stuff, like I can do that all day, every day. But the mental and emotional stuff, that's where I need to train. So one of the lessons I took from that was the first time that I started to kind of feel that rise up in me. I was like, oh, I really need to work on that in myself, right. Like I'm not as mentally gritty and resilient as I thought I was. So I mean, gosh, there's a lot to unpack there. Like first thing that comes to mind is archi locus. We don't rise to the level of our expectations. We fall to the level of our training, right. So for me it's like I thought I was going to get this, but man, now I'm eating shit, so I'm having like. I'm having like re re-conordered my own ways of thinking, and that's been really good. Another thing man is being a, so my wife stays at home with the kids, I'm out doing the money things and like doing all this stuff. So it's like I really am taking on this leadership role, like I'm leading my house, and it's not that I've been thrust into it. We've been, we've been doing this for a while now. But like I've really had to step it up and change the way that I look at myself, the way that the narrative that I have about me and who I am, and the way that that's changed a lot is that like my wife still thinks that I'm full of shit when I say this. But like I look at her and I'll say I've said it before in this conversation it doesn't matter how I feel Like this needs to get done, I can handle it. I've got big, wide shoulders. Well, not really, but metaphorically, put it on me I got this, you know, and that's a, that's a muscle that you got to flex, like once you put in the reps on these things, then only then can you take on more. So, gosh, everything I say is leading to another thing that I've learned. And that's like I can't expect to have future results that I desire if I can't handle what's happening to me right now. So if I can't even handle my baby screaming at me at 2am, then how the hell am I supposed to manage a hundred freshman university students calling me a boring professor or like, like on their phones during class or like you know, hitting me up at all hours of the night because they're worried about their papers and like, or just anything, anything at all Like. If I can't handle this, how can I expect to handle what's going to come later on? So the real thing there is just like look at what it is, find a plan to fix it and put it in perspective. Right, like he, my boys yes, it's difficult because they're one year old and one month old, so it's like a whole lot all at once. But another lesson it's temporary. I said this the last time we talked like everything is temporary. This is just a season. So if I grind it out now and just let it, let it push me to be better, right Like I have to look at it and say, okay, this is a test. That's been another big mantra I've had. Okay, this is a test. What are you going to do? Go, you know like this is happening. You're getting four hours of sleep on average for a week and then you have to write a five page paper and then go visit three high schools and talk to them about university admissions and all this crap. Can you do it? How are you gonna do it? Go, and then I just figure it out. Adapt, and that's another thing. We are adaptable creatures. Whatever we ask of our body, it'll do it if we push it. You know so, like, yeah, it'd be hard at first, but consistency builds those muscles up, mentally and physically, and then, through those reps, is when we become able to go further, go harder, be faster, stronger, smarter all the stuff that Jocko talks about, like put in the reps. You know so, every little thing that's hard. I just do it over and over and over again until it becomes easy, and I'm at the point now where it's kind of like oh, wow, just over the past month I've noticed growth in certain areas, especially mentally and emotionally. And one more thing I've gotten really good at keeping my mouth shut Obviously not on here, not on here but I don't have to say everything that I feel. You know what I mean.

Speaker 2: 22:37

Yeah, yeah, that last one was pretty good. I actually never heard anyone say that. That's a very good skill, actually learning to know when it's appropriate to speak, you know. But it's interesting actually. Just there was a couple of things you said there that I'd be very interested in hearing. So you're doing well and you're grinding this, I eat, and you've got wide shoulders, and that's all very good, but have you learned any lesson about how to avoid burnite? Because I mean, that sounds like a lot, man. Like I had to totally agree with everything you said. You know the body's adaptable, push yourself, flex those mental grip muscles, but like, how do you tell the difference between you're just being lazy and not bothered or burnite, like in your opinion, how did you recognize that?

Speaker 1: 23:28

Yeah, so it's daily actions, man. Like every single day, I put rest into my schedule and it looks different depending on the day and depending on the schedule, because I know that I am very susceptible to burnout, right. Like I know that if I don't go to the gym or if I don't take the time to meditate or to journal or to just sit and watch Netflix, dude, like sometimes I just want to sit on the couch and like watch a documentary about toaster ovens, you know, or something like this, something obscure, just to help me to like veg out. And so I have to schedule that in every single day. Like my job. I love my job now because I have a lot of freedom to do my thing. Like it's very individualized. So like today, for example, I'm at work right now, right, but I went up to my boss and I was like hey, man, look, I got a full day tomorrow of traveling. I'm gonna be traveling all day to two different places. I'm gonna be working from about 6 am until about 10 pm. So I got a long ass day tomorrow. So I said, hey, I got this talk lined up and I've. Also, my wife didn't sleep well last night, so I need to go home and make sure she's good and I'm gonna take her some food and then like I'm worried I'm not gonna be able to go to the gym, do you care if I take the afternoon and just do these things? And he was like yeah, man, do what you gotta do. He said just do whatever you gotta do to not get burnout. So luckily I've got supervisors that acknowledge burnout and they say do what you have to do to make sure you don't get burnout. So yeah, one big thing, man, is I try not to get behind too much, because I feel like getting behind gets me all worried about things, because then I'm like, oh no, oh no, everything's gonna fall apart and that perpetuates burnout for me. So like if I get overwhelmed because I've allowed things to get backed up. So it's really just thinking ahead, being cognizant of what burnout feels like and then catching it before it comes. It's in the heat of the moment when the shit's hitting the fan. That's too late, you know. I have to take like preemptive action.

Speaker 2: 25:47

Yeah, man, I really liked that and I can totally relate to that because that's, I think, quite recently I got a bit stressed out and my job was really intense for a while and then, with the podcasting and then just life in general, man, and like I definitely fell behind in a few areas and I didn't burnout, so to speak, but it was very intense for a couple of weeks and I was like, man, this is not sustainable. In a weird way, I got COVID and that, in a weird way, did put the brakes on things. I felt physically ill, it was not a lovely, it was not a nice place to be at all, really really unpleasant. But everything else in like satellite wise around my personal life sort of stopped and gave me that breathing space to just focus on recovery. And yeah, I think it's so interesting that I know these things internally but you saying them just reinforces them. Like I think we're a very similar mindset and I think that it's so good to talk to people of a similar mindset, because it's age old saying you're an iron sharpens iron, because there's definitely times where it's up to you to figure it out. This is your problem, to sort your responsibility, but it's also nice just to have a chat with a friend and go look, man, this is where I'm not potentially living up to my top form in life, or this is where I'm exceeding and we can share our wins and learns, so to speak. But yeah, I really liked everything that you said there and, for anyone listening, actually, do you what do you do? Do you have a weekly schedule? Do you plan out your days every day? Do you plan out all your days on a Sunday? Like what do you do? Because I think that could be a very useful tool for people to learn.

Speaker 1: 27:50

Yeah, man, so I have four calendars, not even exactly Four, I just counted them all. So I have a dry erase board in my office with calendar on it and then I have my personal planner that I carry around all the time and I'm in it like every day, three, four times a day. I have the calendar attached to my work email and then I have another dry erase board in my kitchen at home and I keep oh shoot, I guess I got five, because there's a system that my work uses that we have to log in all the different events and travel that we do. So then that one is like just for, like, office use, right? So everybody's stuff is on that. So I mean I have to log everything in there as well. So like I have to have structure and planning and everything I need everything, boom, boom, boom, boom. Like I'm not gonna dig my planner out, but like I don't even give myself leeway to make any decisions. Really, in the moment All my decisions are pretty much made for me. The big ones, you know, the overarching things. Of course, spontaneous things happen where we have to pivot and adjust and adapt and all this stuff. And you know that's all well and good, because the more I don't have to make those big decisions, the more brainpower I have to make those little ones in the moment. And then also, like talking about making the little ones in the moment, the best way that I found for me to get to that place where I do make the best decisions in the moment is to be present and not in some woo woo, mindfulness exercise type of stuff, because people will push that off to the side. I'm not discounting that. I practice it and it's good. John Cabot is the man. However, I allow myself, I've heard a few guys talk about this. One of our mutual guys that we know talked about this a buffer period between meetings and between scheduled activities. So a rise up the event and then the cool down and then the rise up to the next one. So it only takes like five minutes or so, right? So, example I'm going to work in the morning. I'm already thinking about okay, this is how, who do I need to show? How do I need to show up in order to interact with students in the best way? I need to be empathetic, I need to be kind, I need to be patient, I need to be understanding of their situation. Right, that's empathy. Like I need to have these traits, these virtues, in order to show up and do the best in that atmosphere. So I put on my college hat. Then when I go on my lunch break I go to the gym because food I can eat sitting at my desk. My lunch break go to the gym On my walk to the gym takes about three minutes or so. I've got some crazy angry music or I don't want angry shirts like loud in your face, music going and I'm getting into animal mode While my pre-workout's kicking in. I'm like, okay, I'm about to go destroy this gym like laser focused. I got an hour to just make myself suffer, right? And I'm getting into this mindset like I'm gonna go just tear this gym apart and then after the gym, when I'm sitting in the sauna, I do eight minutes at 200 in the sauna and I'll be sitting there. That's my cool downtime to get ready to go back to work. Because I can't take that mindset into work with me or I'll scare the debt, I'll scare the life out of this place. I'll be like nobody cares, work harder or discipline equals freedom. These kids will be like but I just wanna go to college and I'm like, oh yeah, my bad, yeah, I didn't switch it off. So like.

Speaker 2: 31:41

I have to have, and then on my way home.

Speaker 1: 31:43

I got like a 10 minute drive or so. I'll put on some nice chill ambient music because I'm about to have to step into dad husband mode. So then I'm like, okay, back to the kindness, love, empathy, patience. You know, patience, like that's my big one, for that is like being patient. You know, be mindful of your words. Like I have to say this to myself sometimes out loud, especially if it's been a trying day. I'm like be mindful of what you say, because sometimes I word vomit and the next thing I know the night's ruined because I've said something stupid to my wife. Next thing, you know, there you have it. You know I'm bad for that because I don't get myself worked into that mindset, that dad husband mindset, dad slash husband. So like I think that is a great way for me. It's a great way to fight burnout as well, right? Because if I'm growing in six different places, then it's a lot easier for me to break. It's a lot easier for me to break it up, right, and it's for me to just look at it all in one big thing and get overwhelmed If I break it up into these different sections. Okay, I'm working on this now. Take that out. Working on this now it's a lot less. Overwhelming is one word, but I've always heard people say how do you eat an elephant? One body at a time, oh right.

Speaker 2: 33:17

I really like that. That could actually be the episode title. Ha ha ha.

Speaker 1: 33:35

I'm up there a little bit.

Speaker 2: 33:38

I did. Yeah, the joys of modern podcasting. I'm telling you.

Speaker 1: 33:41

But another thing I say to guys is like, yeah, sure you eat an elephant one bite at a time, but what do you do if you bite off more than you can chew? And I heard one guy say to me one day oh you spit it, the fuck out. And I said no, I was like that's one way to do it. Sure you can do that if you want, but you just keep chewing, right. So I like one bite at a time, but then, if it's too much, just keep on chewing, man, because you're going to. It's going to all work itself out in time.

Speaker 2: 34:11

Yeah, 100%, and I really like what you said there, especially, the well the better. I really resonated with there was you know, if you're growing in six different directions at once, which is you know what I'm trying to do, I'm trying to grow on multiple levels and become the best man I can be and it's, it's interesting the different hats, different situations. I've never actually seen it from that perspective and I might. I'm actually going to maybe have to try and do that now because I'm very guilty, I think, of bringing work home with me and it just sort of, especially if it's yeah, if it's a bad day, man, you're like you end up bringing it to spaces it shouldn't be brought into. Or if something's going on at home, you know, you bring it into your work and, in your work, suffer. So, man, that's solid advice. I really liked that and what occurred to me while you were speaking was that you're in a really unique place and that you know you already have an amazing life story from the first time you were on the podcast, which audience, please do check out, but everything that's led you to where you are now, you are you know I hope I'm putting this correctly an older college student. I would say you're beyond that now. You're now transitioning into that you know, professor kind of stage, I would say. But for a lot of people listening here, you know potentially a little bit worried about going to college, don't know what to expect. You know what? What's your perspective on college and university as a older and wiser man than potentially you know? I think you call them freshmen when they come straight into college.

Speaker 1: 35:57

Yeah, first time university students, yeah. When they're fresh out of high school fresh, you know, 18 years old coming in the world's big and scary and just. I talked to every single day. I talked to kids who don't have a clue what they want to do and the first thing I say to them is good, you're 18 years old. You shouldn't know what you want to do, you know. If you do know what you want to do, I would question that because you may be potentially set yourself up for failure. Like I got kids coming in who they've been an athlete since they were little kids but they're at a place now where they're about to enter a higher level of athletics but they still think like I'm going to go to like the NBA, or I'm going to go to the NFL or I'm going to be on the PGA tour, and I'm like I never tell them this. You know, I try to work with them and be like okay, well, if that doesn't pan out, what? What are you going to fall back on? You know?

Speaker 2: 36:57

because we have to have contingencies.

Speaker 1: 37:01

And that would be a piece of advice I would give to new people coming in, no matter what they're wanting to get into. Like well, that's good for your first plan and I 100% pursue it. But what if that doesn't work out? Contingencies are good, but then also college and university. Like it's not for everybody Right, like so many kids right now think that it's something they have to do. Like I talk to kids every day that say, oh well, I don't really want to go, but my parents are making me. Like, well, don't go. You know, if you don't want to do it, don't do it, because it's going to put you. It could potentially put you in debt. It could potentially not. Like, for me, I have zero debt but because I was in the military and they're really taking care of me, but like, if you don't want to do it, don't do it. There are so many other tracks and for some people it's better to go out and work for a couple of years. Then maybe reassess, say, oh you know, maybe I do want to go to get some higher education, or maybe I am interested in this and I found this job that really calls to me, but I need an advanced degree in order to get that job. So maybe I'll go do that. What would be a good advanced degree to get to get that job? Because I feel like it could be my dream job. So, like for me, I would not be. I would not still be a student right now if I didn't want to be a university professor. Yeah, because I can. If all I wanted to do is write books about things in history, I could do that right now without any more school. I could do it. I know I could. I have the skill set. But that's not where I want to stop. So I have to keep going, whether I like it or not, because at the end of the road, at the end of the schooling, that's where my dream job lies. So right now I just got to suck it up and get the work done, you know.

Speaker 2: 38:53

Yeah, but yeah.

Speaker 1: 38:54

And also one more thing on the financial piece like this is more practical advice. Like there are always ways to get more money than you think you can get. So tap into the resources at each university, their financial aid offices, scholarship offices and say, hey, I'm from this place, this is my family background, this is my background. What can I do to get more money to pay for school? I guarantee you that people in those offices will help you. That's what I do, Like I talk to kids and I'm like hey, so you are, you have a diverse background. So how can we use that? And what scholarships could you potentially qualify for? Oh well, here's this random, obscure scholarship for $1,000 for a semester. All because you went to Boy Scouts of America for like a year when you were a kid. Let's sign you up. Let's fill out this essay and this application and get you in there for it. Like, just make sure you exhaust all resources if you're having issues finding the money to pay for it.

Speaker 2: 40:02

Yeah, that's really good advice. I mean I don't know if that kind of thing exists in the UK Well, I've never been to university so I wouldn't know but it's definitely worth checking out and especially in America, where, you know, degrees and scholarships whatever you call them are a lot pricier. Everything just costs more in America from what I can see. But absolutely solid advice and the do you know what I'm just thinking as well. See, for people who, like, are seriously considering doing a degree in history, like you, what advice do you have for them? Like, who suits? I don't know I'm going to hopefully ask this question well, but like, is there a type of person who suits a history degree? Is, what kind of jobs can you get with history? You know, what kind of advice would you have for people who are seriously considering going down that route?

Speaker 1: 41:02

Yeah. So that's interesting, man. I had a professor tell me a while back, like he just looked me dead in the eye and he said, man, it's not for everybody. And that kind of little fire in my ass because I thought he was talking to me, you know. He's like, hey, you're not going to make it, it's not for everybody. And I was like, well, I'll show you, you know. But I don't think he meant it that way. He and I are pretty good friends now, but that's how I took it and it fueled me for a minute, which we can get into fuel in another part of the conversation, but so when it comes to studying history, pragmatic people, people who question things. That's always good. Curious, you know. It's good to be curious. Perhaps a curious Ulsterman could say history and hey so that's another thing. Curiosity is good, man, because you never know where trails may lead, so there's an investigative part to it as well. But then also one of my professors last semester he gave me, so I sent out. I sent out an email to every history professor in our history department here and just asking what their philosophy was regarding the discipline of history, what their life philosophy is and how that leads into their professional and their scholarly life. Because all the professors here are still doing their own research and writing their own books and doing all their things. And then maybe if they had some advice that they wish somebody would have given them when they were up and coming in their school and trying to become a history professor, what would it say? And so I sent this out to all these professors because I was trying to put down on paper my own philosophy for myself, like how do I want to show up as a historian? Like how much of my personal stuff should I let into my writing? And a professor said to me you know, there's a word in German that I think all history students of history, the discipline itself, need to know, and it's sits, flesh, and what that translates to literally is but meet. So it's the ability. It's the ability to sit for long periods of time until the job is done. So we call it and a little bit more you know proper phrasing academic endurance. So I have to be able to sit and read for hours at a time, to sit and write for hours at a time. The hardest part for me so far has been looking at old documents that are handwritten. Like I have to look at somebody's handwriting and then just sit with it, because in the first couple hours I'm still figuring out how to read this person's handwriting. I'm still figuring out their personality, their pen strokes. There are some flourishes that they do on a consistent basis. Like after a couple hours I'm just getting warmed up. Same with writing. With writing, the first couple hours I'm probably going to end up editing that stuff out or throwing that stuff away because I'm just getting the juices falling. I'm just getting warmed up, but then the next three hours after that, that's where I'm getting real work done. So that ability to just sit and focus for a long period of time, the ability to do that on something that I'm not entirely interested in, that's a whole other level. So, like I was mentioning before, ancient Mediterranean Bronze Age trade routes? Don't care. However, I wrote a 13-page paper on this stuff. Yeah, so it's doable, but you got to have that ability to focus, and that can be cultivated. I don't think a person has to have that naturally, because who the hell has that naturally?

Speaker 2: 45:05

Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1: 45:07

But, just like anything, it can be cultivated and it transfers over into real-world environments. Go into a boardroom meeting and you see a guy sitting there fidgeting in like, oh, I can't wait to get out of here so I can go, like, play some golf or something Like this is stupid. I hate this. That guy's not going to make it. But you get the person who's in there, just like in their mind they're thinking this is horseshit. I hate this. This is worthless. This is a waste of my time. I despise it. However, on the front they're like, and then they actually give input when it's asked for, like the ability to sit and till the job's done, like that's. I think that's the best piece I've ever gotten from a professor about what to do.

Speaker 2: 45:57

That is how to be as a really, as a really interesting philosophy, actually, and it's, you know, at its core, you know sticking with it until the job is done until the job is done man Until the job is done. That's I could almost be a life quote couldn't it.

Speaker 1: 46:15

Well, that word has roots in the labor movement right Like of like the 20s and 30s. So these people like if in a factory setting where the work is monotonous and it's laborious, like you're in there just going hard doing the same thing over and over and over for like eight hours, 10 hours, like you gained a lot of respect from being that person who could just get in there and do the work until it was done. So I mean like yeah, he's got good sits flesh, like that's a good compliment.

Speaker 2: 46:48

He's got some good company.

Speaker 1: 46:51

That's a big compliment. So if I had a professor tell me that now, I'd be like thanks, yeah. So what are you good about that? Yeah?

Speaker 2: 47:01

When I started this conversation I did not anticipate well on the avenues being sit flesh and I.

Speaker 1: 47:06

whenever does man that's never does?

Speaker 2: 47:13

That's class. So what, as a bit of a student of history then, what do you think is the most important lessons? We're all missing out on that. Like history so vast that you know there's lessons. Alexander the great can teach us those lessons World War two can teach us, but like just from your own perspective. Do you think there's any? Do you think there's anything history's taught you that you can impart with everybody?

Speaker 1: 47:42

Yeah, and honestly I think it's something that's missing a lot in Western cultures right now, today and now. I'll preface this by saying, as a historian, I try to it's frowned upon in the discipline to really like kind of project into the future things that happen in history, like causality and things of that nature, and then also like the whole, like from this we can learn this, because context is important. However, there are a few abstract things that I could speak to on that and that the main one that comes to mind is that nothing is ever what it seems like. And that speaks to nuance. Right, there's a loss of nuance in the world today. That is a huge issue. It's setting us up for big time failure and access to information has never been greater. So at now, like the time period now, compared to, say, the 1940s or even the 1970s, people can do their own research. Now, the reason why they're not doing it is beyond me. I don't know. I can't answer that question, but I think on a large scale, there are quite a few people who do their own research on things and formulate their own opinions, but we still tend to take things that face value. But, yeah, nothing is ever what it seems I'll give them a pass back in the 20s and 30s because they didn't have the resources to research and to really question things and dive deeper. But we don't have any excuse now. Like, if something comes up that like, say the government says something, or say my professor says something, like say, my professor is a deep down, deeply rooted Marxist and I have no idea, and he says something that's extremely neo Marxist, but I don't really know anything about it. So I just take it at face value and I'm like, oh well, that's the truth of the world. I'm going to take that with me rather than say, hmm, I'm going to look into that, because I don't know where that philosophy comes from, you know. So that's just one example of many. Like we need to dive a little deeper, we need to question things, we need to understand that everybody uses different sources and then also, on top of that, even if we use the same sources, everybody has a different interpretation. So and I mean that's that's a storyography right there Like, like, if you look at one topic and it's got maybe like seven big time historians focusing on this one topic and between them they've put out maybe 10 books or so, they're all basically using the same source space. So they've all got the same documents, the same firsthand accounts, the same cultural items like literature, poetry, film, media of different sorts. They're all using those same sources. Paintings they're just interpreting them differently because they're each a different style. Right? So that's life, so we have. We can't take things at face value. And then there's another thing too. So I was thinking of a book earlier. They called Ordinary Men by Christopher Browning. Have you ever heard of that book?

Speaker 2: 51:00

No, I haven't.

Speaker 1: 51:02

No, it's about a group of police officers in Nazi Germany right before the Holocaust took place, and these guys were just from regular back. They were reserve police battalion, they weren't even full on soldiers, right. But over time, through different means I highly suggest reading the book. It's so good but they came to commit atrocities, escorting Jews to the, to the concentration camps, to their death, right To the death of Jews right in the street. You know, like some of these guys were like just like you and me, but through these different means they were manipulated. Not even some of them weren't even manipulated, it was just straight up Like it just happened over time in a slow and steady process. So anyone is capable, given the right circumstances, of committing atrocities, for one thing, but also just doing and saying and thinking things that previously we would never imagine ourselves doing or saying or thinking Right Like. So I never say never, and that's one thing I've learned from study in history is, like I've seen. Okay. So a little more context. My main area of focus from me personally is collective violence. Like why do groups of people hurt and attack and kill and all these things? They're groups of people Like what. Like what throughout history causes this to happen. So my thesis right now is on lynching in the American South in like the 1890s or so is where I'm focused right now and I'm really diving deep about what type of circumstantial things had to happen within specific regions that would push these people to enact these types of atrocities on another group of people just because of the color of their skin. You know, like, what has to happen around people and within their mindset. So that's causing me to dive into political things, economic things, cultural things like the dynamic of the family, the roles of women, the roles of religion and ritual, and you know all these different things. So nothing is what it seems and never say never, because we've seen throughout history it could happen to anybody Like this crazy stuff and anybody could dive into these things given their own circumstances. So context matters.

Speaker 2: 53:36

Yeah, that's so important as well, but then I suppose the real question is how do you get people to stop Excuse me, how do you get people to stop being purely concerned with tech talk and Instagram, and they'll see something on the news that really gets them riled up and, instead of tweeting about it going, actually, maybe I should pause just for a couple of minutes. Who posted that? Who are they being funded by? What is the agenda? What is the context? That's so important and I really it really gives me. I was very interested, actually, when you just said that your collective, your study is collective violence, that you know, it seems to be as long as human beings have stood upright and climbed down from the trees, we have ward, whether that's over resources or you know somebody, ego got hurt. You know, it's such, it's so interesting and I'd actually be almost tempted to dedicate an entire episode to potentially that kind of topic, like what are? Our fundamental core is informing our decision to enact violence on others, because, you know, when you're a teenager and you're in the school playground and the hormones are flying around, somebody said this and somebody said that, and you know there's a bit of 50 cups on the go. However, when you've got governments with nuclear weapons, you know going toe to toe, what led to them coming to what, what systematic failures led to this point in time that we're now in a very precarious situation. And I suppose we're seeing this acted out in real life now. It's like something out of a Tom Clancy novel with the situation in Ukraine. So it's so. Yeah, I've never actually looked at it or even heard it from that perspective, but there was a quote I seen and I want you just to tell me from your educated opinion if it's absolute bull, but it was just a little snippet I seen on social media and it said if you think fake news is bad, wait till you read about history, and I thought that's an interesting, that's a very interesting take. I don't know if there's any semblance of truth to it, because you always hear the cliche quote history is written by the victor. But you know, I don't even know if that's really true or not. But what was your perspective on that quote? It used to be yeah, yeah, I think once many people learned to read and write and think for themselves, that quote probably became redundant. But what's your perspective on that quote then?

Speaker 1: 56:22

I'll hit on the fake news. If you think fake news is bad, quote first. So fake news is bad now because it's so quickly disseminated, right yeah. So that to me is what makes it worse now than disinformation has ever been in the history of Western society and the history of the world. This is the worst it's ever been because of how quickly it can move and poison. But then also, if you're reading history books, just because a book is about a historical topic and it's written by someone who is a historian, claims to be a historian, whether they're like coming from Oxford or not, it's still interpretation, so it's still based on primary sources. So I would always suggest, if you're looking into something in history, don't just read one book. You're only getting one person's viewpoint. Look at the primary. Look at every history book written. We use a specific manual of style. You're looking the back of the book, the bibliography, the footnotes. That's what's important in these books, because then you could say, oh well, where did they come up with this interpretation? Oh, it's because they looked at this document from this time that was written by this person and then this is how they interpreted it. So for me I'm writing about lynching I've read at least 11 books written by different historians about lynching, and they each take a different route to get to a specific thesis, to prove a specific thesis, and they all tend to use a lot of the same sources. So what did I do? I looked. Oh, what newspapers are they looking at? What sermons are they looking at? Like, I got one that's all about how ritual and religion was like the main driver of the way lynchings were carried out, and there's a lot to it, you know. So look at the sources, always Look at the sources. And then what was the second quote?

Speaker 2: 58:34

History is written by the victor.

Speaker 1: 58:36

Oh, yeah, yeah, so it used to be that way. Yeah, I mean, if you study the history of history, the discipline, there was a time when history was only written by big, rich old white guys. That was it and that lasted for a long time, and I would even argue that some of the residue of that is still going on. So it's uncommon that you'll come across that, but some of the older historians that are still kicking, still putting out books, they still have some residue of that because that's how they were taught. So then you start looking at great man history, which is like specific individuals made all this history happen. Like Churchill was the reason that World War II was one, or you know, like stuff like that. Like it's all based on great figures and that hell, that type of history holds propagandistic value, right, like it helps to bring people together, united under one person. So it does have like state building powers, because then you also got to look at there were times when certain state powers would hire historians who were 100% on their side to write a history book that would be taught in all of their schools in that area. Mexico during the Mexican revolutions a great example, right, they hire to, they have. Each regime would hire a pet historian is what some scholars have termed it and that historian would just write a really nice, beautiful history book saying the government's the greatest, we're leading everyone to equality, this is how we're doing it. So that became the national history right. Nowadays, though, people are looking back on that and they're saying, oh well, this is crap. None of this ever came to fruition. So that's when you get this movement, now called new cultural history, and it's been around for a while. It's not that new, but it's new cultural history and it's rather than a top down approach the elites down to the subaltern, like the populace it's more of a bottom up approach now. So, like we have a lot more history books coming out that are, through the eyes of the lower level actors we'll say so the House of Lives or the labor movement. Like there are a lot of historians who focus on labor history, right, so, and a lot of that, it has to be based in the lower level. Now you can do labor history from a top down standpoint, but it's more interesting to read and it's more connectable. Now I don't even know if that's a word it's you're able to like connect with it If it's from a lower level, like the workers. So it used to be written by the victors, not so much anymore, especially with the internet. Internet changed everything with history, so we're able to. You got blog posts coming out now that are being cited in historical monographs. So seriously, oh yeah, man, I cite podcast interviews, sometimes as long as the history, as long as the historian they can listen to is a credited historian, and I know that they know what's going on Like, yeah, I'll cite a podcast interview, but I'll blatantly say that in my writing Such and such historian said bloody, bloody, bloody when they did an interview in such and such podcast, and then I'll make a footnote and then I'll say the podcast can be found at this place. There are new citing methods for these types of media, because if we leave that out, we're missing a huge piece of the puzzle, especially with these long form talks that are happening now. This is the new way that people are going to get their information is through podcasting. Nobody reads these big, thick books anymore. We don't have to rely on newspaper to get our news. So podcasts are the way. You're asking how we get people to stop scrolling through TikTok and ask them harder questions. I don't know how to do it, or I don't know if anybody does really Honestly, I think it's going to take care of itself. I think people are going to finally stop taking in everything they're being fed, because they're going to get tired of not seeing the results, just like happened in the Mexican Revolution.

Speaker 2: 1:03:07

I like how you tied that all together.

Speaker 1: 1:03:09

It doesn't repeat itself, but it tends to be cyclical. It echoes. There are echoes that's not me saying that, I'm butchering that from another quote but there are echoes like residue. There are different types of things that are kind of the same. Things tend to be cyclical. What's that quote? No-transcript. Hard times breed hard men. Hard men make soft times make soft men.

Speaker 2: 1:03:38

Yeah, yeah, that's something like that in the right.

Speaker 1: 1:03:40

That happens that that's history in a nutshell From my perspective. Now I tend to not use too many broad stroke type things when I'm talking about his history because, like I said before, context matters. But, if we really zoom in out and try to take some big lessons from, just like, the broad strokes. Yeah, I mean, I Don't. I wouldn't be surprised if there's not a revolution. I'm not gonna go that far, but I wouldn't be surprised if, like the social media platforms Start to take a whole lot more flack from the users in the coming 20 years. Especially, have you seen the social dilemma? No, I haven't no, oh man, you need to watch it. It made me stop using Social media for a long time.

Speaker 2: 1:04:32

like I still haven't really Gotten back after it, I'm gonna have to get it again for business stuff but, yeah, to be to be fair with social media, I probably would have been off at a long time ago. The only reason I'm really on it is Because of, well, this like to, you know, market the podcast. You know something I learned early on let's go where you're on a great.

Speaker 1: 1:04:56

Yeah, you know, like, like a hammer. You can use it to build a house or you can use it to bash somebody's head. Yeah, any, any tool, oh.

Speaker 2: 1:05:06

It's a very visceral analogy, but that is so true. So true, isn't it? Because you know, with Social media, you know you can create really wholesome groups. You know people who are all connected by this one thing and help build each other up, or you can become a Twitter mob. You know, it's her rend. It's. It's, it's so interesting like we're going into another potential tangent here of how Human behavior we're capable of, the, of being these incredibly amazing creatures that do such amazing acts of kindness, and we're also capable of Just resorting to our lizard and chimp brain and causing extreme violence or hate towards other people. It's, it's, it's so interesting that you know something you I was thinking about while you were talking about the. The second quote you know history is written by the victors. You know a conversation I had with my friend, nathan, and my co-host Was you know, he's very, very big into history. He's not historian, but he's a big love of Roman history and you know he talked about one of our episodes, hi in Celtic culture During the Roman conquest of Europe, that you know there was a hero culture. It was. You were banded around one hero who would take the fight to the Romans, and you know the. You know it was very one man band, whereas the reason the Romans were successful was because they were had a very Fight for the man. Your left culture, you know, especially within. You know I'm gonna butcher this was it to a studio? The turtle formation they used to do when they were in combat? Tistudo? That was a Tistudo. I hear lots of Roman reenactors going, no, but it's interesting. I think that we see this, this dichotomy, played out on social media and potentially in history, which is where you could potentially agree or refute that. I don't know. But you get these individual virtue signals, trying to be heroes for a cause and trying to cause great harm to people, and then, on the flip side of that coin, you have the Twitter mob who believe, you know, I'm sure the Romans believed what they were doing was correct, trampling through random Celtic tribes in Europe, and, the same way, a Twitter mob going after someone they've never met Because they said something out of context or did something that doesn't align with the political Dogma that they've been fed and you know they'll ruin their career, potentially, dox them, you know, put their address site on the internet for anybody to go and, you know, do harm to them or their family. It's, it's insane how we, we, we seem to live in this weird again dichotomy of Civilized society that at a moment's notice can just turn into Basic chimp warfare. It's, it's so strange, but like what are your thoughts on it?

Speaker 1: 1:08:11

Yeah, I think it comes down to if you're looking at groups from 500 years ago or so, compared to groups now, the tools that they're disposable are different, but then also the tools that they're disposed for advancing their ideology and their agenda is drastically different, but then also motivations for doing so are drastically different. See, I would argue that Many times I'm not gonna say every time, but many times in history Motivations for an acting violence were act. I feel like we're pretty deeply rooted in Survival of an idea or of a culture, like if we don't, if we don't act this way and do these things, then we're gonna die out somehow. So there's like an existential fear involved there. But now this is gonna sound maybe a little harsh, but now it's dopamine driven, like it's yeah, everybody is so like, okay, if I get on social media and I attack this person who disagrees with me, then they're immediately gonna have a hundred people liking what they're doing and they're gonna see all those likes and they're gonna be like oh, I find I've been accepted. You know so. And even though it's, it's not real. You know like, at the end of the day, these people aren't coming up to you and patting you on the back and saying man, you're doing so great, I want to give you money, or I want to take you out to dinner, or I want to hang out with you. You know, when there's the mundane, like, I just want to hang out and shoot the breeze because you seem like a really cool person, which that's what we need more of, is that type of interaction. But what we have is just, it's so easy to go, I like that. And then that we don't understand how that one little click affects an individual who, say, has zero human interaction During every single day of their life. They're sitting there just Longing for a human to just say, to just acknowledge them, you know. So it's dangerous. It's dangerous the, the, the motivation and the payoff, the reward system that's happening here, and it's unprecedented. This, the way things aren't. I mean, this is all throughout history. If you look at a point in time, things were never the same as they were before that point in time, right, but now Our society, our societal technologies and our mechanisms for Moving information and for taking in information have evolved so much faster than our brains have evolved. So it's like it's like having godlike power without the godlike understanding of how to wield that power. Do you know what I mean? Oh, steak, yeah it's like we have all this power, but we don't know how to frickin use it, and so we're going through some growing pains right now as a as a culture, as a human culture. How do we use this crap? Oh well, we're using it this way. There's still not a consensus of the way to use the technology, so we're hashing it out right. It's like I still feel like, even though Social media platforms have been around for what? Almost 20 years, 20 something years now but I still feel like we're beta testing this stuff because humans are slow to like evolve, you know. I mean, millions of years has taken us to get here so. We just haven't quite gotten to where we need to be in order to wield these things responsibly. And if more people, if more people could just be like, you know, take it with a grain of salt, because we're still beta testing this stuff and I think there would be more grace within these tools. But you know, at the end of the day, some humans just suck, you know. So it's just. Yeah, there's, there's always gonna be, there's always gonna be racists. They're few and far between, but they're always gonna exist. There's always gonna be people who think women don't deserve equality, like. There are always gonna be people who are just out to To fall into a Batman movie. They're just out to see the world burn. They just love the chaos. You know, misery loves miserable company. They're gonna be trying to make everybody just as miserable as them, so that they don't feel so alone. That's never gonna end, no matter how advanced or civilized we get, that's never gonna end. Yeah, but we can. We can lessen the effect of it, though, and I think that really all comes down to like spreading awareness, and I see it happening a lot Nowadays with like, especially since the social dilemma came out, and Joe Rogan's done a few interviews with, like the, the Directors and the people who put that documentary together Tristan Harris, I think it's his name, and like those conversations matter and that's happened through podcasting People. The collective, the collective attention span, is still pretty minuscule, like it's still pretty tiny, but I feel like in pockets, in small little groups throughout our society, in our culture, people are starting to get a little bit more tolerant of a video longer than 20 seconds, say, or whatever TikTok videos are is what I'm referencing. So it's one of those muscles that we just have to have to keep putting in the reps and Over time, our collective attention span will continue to grow and grow because people are gonna start realizing oh well, I can't trust all this stuff coming on social media because people are trying to make money, everybody's trying to sell you something. You know there's a, there's a lyric there's. This rapper is named serengeti. He's pretty Not I don't know that many people, I don't really get many listens on Spotify, but he has this song where there's a lyric. He says who can you really trust when everybody's trying to sell you something? And when I hear that it's like man, like that hits me hard right, yeah, I'm like dang like he wrote this song years ago, like who can you really trust? You know, and we're getting to a point where we need someone to trust. We crave it, you know, because that's that tribe mentality, like we're still tribal creatures, we're still herd animals, so we need to trust. Without the trust, you're constantly getting cortisol dumps going on and it's just like okay, when is this all gonna end? You know the end is near. Like you see, those people.

Speaker 2: 1:14:57

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:14:59

That's why, that happens because their way of life, their worldview, is challenged to the point where, like it's existential fear, like it's all gonna end, it's gotta be coming soon.

Speaker 2: 1:15:10

Yeah, that's so true. So, yeah, yeah, it's a crazy, it's so, it's so strange being a human being, isn't that? We're just mad with this? We're, we're start, we're running around in the Happiest, wealthiest, most peaceful time has ever existed in our History as a species, but we're all running around with just as really sophisticated chimps with suits us just and that's the thing about.

Speaker 1: 1:15:40

That is what you just said is all true, but then running around alongside that, depression rates are higher than they've ever been, suicide rates are higher than they've ever been, like the people that have to seek treatment for, for debilitating, chronic mental health issues. It's higher than it's ever been Because we're not made for comfort. You know there's a book, um michael easter wrote this book. I think it's michael easter is his name. I called the comfort crisis and he talks about that man. Like we're not made for all this comfort and all this like Whatever it, whatever you want to call it. So I mean, like that's why, when I'm fighting burnout to bring it back to that sort of thing I have to seek discomfort. You know, like that's how I read Very interesting, that's how I recharge, because I'm like I've never worked in an office before my life and now I'm in an office 40 hours a week, well, or on the road, one, either one of the one or the other. So it's like sometimes I'm just sitting there doing my emails and doing all the things interactions and putting on the happy face, even though I don't like the person I'm talking to or whatever the case may be. You know, playing the game. But then I get back to my cubicle and I'm like I'm about to lose my mind. What is that? You know, I got a comfy chair, climate control. I packed my lunch today so I don't have to spend any money if I don't want to. Or I could just go over to the freaking. We got like four restaurants here on campus. I could just go hit it up. You know, it's never been so easy. But, like sometimes in my, in my work day, I'm just like, oh, I'm about to lose it. So what do I do? I go to the gym and throw heavy weight around and almost puke all over the girl doing yoga, you know it's like, and then after after all that I'm like well, I'm going to go sit in this sauna and see if I can like make myself pass out. You know, it's like yeah that's what it is.

Speaker 2: 1:17:39

It's humans, man. Yeah, it's interesting. You said that because I seen a quote once. It was supposed to be like a fitness motivational and it's like you're not built to be sat around watching Netflix, You're built to be running 30 miles and fighting supertive tigers and I was like, oh man, it's true, and you know it's. It's this concept of manufactured hardship. I think the build up those mental calluses in your brain. So, for example, something I like to do is something as simple as a shower. I like to have a warm shower in the morning, as you do, but then to finish it, I'll do 30 seconds of it on the coldest setting. And in the beginning, man, that was hard, but now I actually look forward to it because I already know, I know, obviously, during at my body's going, what on earth is this? You know all the natural processes are going on. You know, as a bloke for the 30 seconds, I end up looking like a woman, identifying as a woman. We're both in cold shower. Absolutely Embrace it, oh yeah, but you know, 30 seconds in and afterwards, you know you got me like man, I'm alert, I feel good and I'm ready to attack the day and it's, it's. It's interesting, I think that I don't know how you keep doing it, but you keep saying the things that have been happening to me, the part that I've been experiencing. I'm putting them, you know, into. I hope I'm going to use the right word here, but verbiage. It's in that, like recently, when I say it, when I say a reason, I mean like as of yesterday, I was kind of feeling a bit de-energized, a bit like just going through the motions, and internally I didn't, I didn't even speak a lot, but internally I knew that I was happiest when I was getting after it and at the end of the end of a hard working day I was like satisfied, like yes, you know, I worked hard, the podcast, my great progress, or I had a really good day at work. It was hard graft, but we achieved something. I find that when I'm, when I deliberately indulge in continuous, non-stop comfort, that's when the danger starts to creep in. That's when I start to feel a bit disenfranchised and a bit irritable and a bit it's better, and it's so strange that we crave it, but then, when we get it, too much of it makes us miserable. It's such a weird existence, isn't it?

Speaker 1: 1:20:14

Man, I am not a neurobiologist, I am not an evolutionary scientist, so I don't know the mechanisms that cause that within us, but I know I experience it. If I sit around too long, I turn into just a miserable, just not a good person to be around. So that's why, every single day, man, I have to do something, like on my rest. Even on my rest days, I'm still getting in like six or seven thousand steps. You know, mowing the grass.

Speaker 2: 1:20:46

I'm about to ask about that. Actually, how's the running going?

Speaker 1: 1:20:49

I know you were like oh yeah, I took like a month off, man.

Speaker 2: 1:20:54

Yeah, which is the?

Speaker 1: 1:20:55

it's the first time I've taken a month off in like six years or so, but then last week I logged about 20 miles, so I'm starting to get back after it. I've been adding in a lot more like functional fitness type stuff, a lot of kettlebell work and things like that, because it means trail running season. So it's whole business season but and that takes a lot more core and just, I feel that I have to, I have to focus a little more on different levels of fitness because of what my life calls for now, Like if, say, if the situation calls for it, I have to be able to pick up both of my boys and run flat out for a hundred yards to get away from, say, an active shooter or something, and if I'm not strong enough in my upper body to do that, then I'm not being the leader that I could be. You know, Like what, if I needed to put my wife on my back and both boys want to need to arm and move quickly in a direction for an unspecified length of you know distance? Like, could I do it? I mean sure, the adrenaline going, I could probably pull it off, but could I? Could I make myself more capable of doing it? Yes, Every single day. So I've had to. I've shifted my focus on my fitness to accommodate what my life is asking of me.

Speaker 2: 1:22:19

Yeah, I really like that because I think me and you are of a similar mindset and I think, well, most blokes probably share it as well, that very primal urge to protect at all costs, if you know what I mean, but just naturally fill into that role. But I think what separates you from most is that you've recognized it and you're like. You know it's that concept. I think it's very popular in America, that concept of left, of buying, you know, getting ready before the incident rather than the incident occurs. And then you have to. You have to, you know, react as best you can. You know, when I was when I was 18, I was in a situation I never thought I'd be in. I was around a and I can't say I'm mass shooting, but it was a shooting, so to speak. I was. Fortunately someone did die and one got injured, and how. The dude was a horrific shot, thankfully, because he took, took, took potshots and about 10 different people and I missed him by about 10 seconds. Like I shut the door behind me and then the shooting started and I was able to go the other direction, but like I had no concept of what to do, like you know, there was no training. There was no. You know how would you put it. You know your brain goes into full flight or flight. You know I mean, there's no rational thinking. It is get away from the danger If it's not right in front of you. You know, I mean, obviously, if he was right in front of me you had to have done something about it. You couldn't run away. But yeah, it's that. It's that interesting concept that you know, and I face the reality myself. I'm not as capable as I could be. I am trying, I'm trying to get better. But how many of us sit in, as we were just saying, continuous, nonstop comfort and just expect someone else to come and save us? You know, I mean, it's it's a hard reality check.

Speaker 1: 1:24:18

Or like how many people sit around and watch kung fu movies and then think that when somebody throws a punch at them, they're going to, like Sidra, kick them in the back of the head or something you know it's like oh, I'm washed enough. Jean Claude Van Damme movies that if shit hit the fan I'd be good to go. It's like okay, sure, like people actually believe that? I do not. I do not believe that because I've experienced it. I have been punched in the face and been like hell. It just happened, you know so. I know that it's when. It's when we think we're hot shit, that's when everything collapses around us. That's that's what I've learned from my own past is, every time I've thought to myself, oh, I'm good, I get overconfident and I started thinking I've got this all figured out, just then, that's, that's when everything just happens.

Speaker 2: 1:25:10

However, it's going to happen and I'm not prepared for it. Yeah, it catches you. You've obviously been free, like, from some tough times, you know, in your life and you know I have been very fortunate to see you where you are today. Like the growth man you inspire me all the time when I just see you getting after it. Thanks, man. So, for all the tough lessons that you've had to learn, what do you think you can share with everybody? That like there's one lesson stand out, or is there a couple? Like what with your life story? What do you think you can share to a younger generation?

Speaker 1: 1:25:48

Yeah, I mean that's kind of a tough question, I guess. I mean I've said it a million times and I'm pretty sure I said it last time I was on here and it's everything's temporary. So I don't really. That is very true and I stick by that. I say that to people almost every day. Like this won't. When you say Marcus Aurelius, your favorite quote this this two shall pass. So I mean that's definitely there. But like I think the biggest thing man is to just take, I have to take time every single day to just remember my why, what, why am I doing all this? You know, like Simon Sinek has a book called Start With why and it's a business leadership type book about, like if a business starts with the why they do stuff instead of the what they're doing or the how, like if you start with the why, then you're automatically going to be that much more successful. But I mean I can I take that to a personal level, as I'm sure millions of people have done with his book, but if I think it's Nietzsche right, he who has yeah. Frederick Nietzsche can understand or can make it through any, whatever it is yeah, yeah, you can do it if you know why you're doing it. So yeah, for me, get clear on it. So I've actually had to sit down and put it on paper. You know me, I need it on paper, written in Crayola, you know, like dumb down, like speak to me like I'm five type of thing. And I've had to get really, really clear about why I do stuff. So even when I'm in the gym and like there'll be some days this happened recently I've got a picture of my oldest son on my cell phone wallpaper and has a lot of parents do. But for me, like I was on a rowing machine the other day just sucking, like I was on like my third circuit of this little thing I do, and I was just like man, why, like, why am I doing this to myself? And then I remembered that I told myself a while before this anytime you ask yourself that stupid question, just look at your phone. And I asked myself the question and it became like it was just like automatic. I reached down, grabbed my phone and looked at it and there he was with his little, like his little toothless grin. Actually he has a couple of teeth. I looked at it and I was like, okay, put my phone back in my pocket. I just got back going on the rowing machine faster than it was before. So if we get clear about why we do things, when it gets really monotonous and really bad and things just seem like they'll never end or the pain we think is too great, just remember why. And that takes me to the next level. You know I'm a purpose driven guy. You know, like I have to have the mission and I have to understand the purpose of the mission and it has to mean something to me. So I can just be like I'm doing this, why to make a paycheck? That's not deep enough for me, like it has to be like bigger than me. You know.

Speaker 2: 1:29:08

Yeah, damn right, I really liked that. I might have to take that going forward, like you know well, that concept of what's your why yeah, it's powerful isn't it A lot better a question than you know what or how? You know what I mean, at least to.

Speaker 1: 1:29:25

Oh for sure, the what and the how are easy. The what and the how are the easy parts. It's the why, you know, because that's like trying to find your purpose, you know. People are obsessed about, like, how do I find my passion and my purpose? Like, well, you don't find it, you make it. You know, try new shit, you try new shit. And then if you say, oh, I don't like this thing, well then you do a different thing until you find the thing. And then you're like, oh, this is my shit, this is my purpose, I'm passionate about this. When I do, this time doesn't exist. I'm in flow. You know, mihai Chick-Man Sihi, I get in the flow state and it's on when I do this thing. Okay, so that's it. Now, what are you going to do with that? That's your why? Oh, go do it.

Speaker 2: 1:30:17

Oh man, that's powerful, that is. And just so I'm curious today, like when you're In fact no, there's a question I would like to ask you, given all the sort of lessons you have imparted, like, in your opinion, was it mean to be a good man? Like you know, I think there's loads of definitions and there's definitely some like, some words will be constantly sort of enshrined within that idea. But, just like from your own perspective and your own life journey, what do you think makes a good man?

Speaker 1: 1:30:53

Yeah, so I've struggled with this right, because a few years ago I always had these ideas of what I thought it meant to be a good man, you know, and it was really just me regurgitating stuff that other people were saying, you know, these catchy buzz words like of how, what I think masculinity is supposed to look like. But I only thought that because that's what a whole bunch of other sources were telling me. And now, being a dad and striving to be a better husband and just doing all the things that life is asking of me, I think it's being comfortable in your own skin and being confident in your ability to perform, no matter what is happening and I mean that physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually, all the facets right, being able to like. For me, the most important thing that I've cultivated by myself is being able to say that's a problem for future, marcus, and I can only say that because I trust that I can handle it, no matter what it is. I know the example I used was discussion in class or something like that, but it's anything right, like, say, I'm in Walmart, or like a store and then an active shooter comes in, like, am I capable of doing the things? Like, I'm confident in myself enough to say that's a problem for future, marcus. Because when the shit hits the fan, I know that I will react in a specific way. Because when I'm in the gym throwing a medicine ball over my shoulder, or on a rolling machine or running or like whatever I'm doing, like I'm thinking in my head, like I'm putting myself in those scenarios mentally, you know, power of the mind is amazing. Like we can manufacture certain scenarios in our mind and make ourselves believe it's real right, but that's a topic for another time. But yeah, to be a man it's to be confident in your skill set, because you've done it Like you're prepared. You know I like that. I mean also man like this is not just to be a man, but to be. What's it mean to be a good person, developing the skill set to be a good person man. Like there are some times when, oh, and minding the gap right, like being able to see the places where you're falling short, and then being humble enough to be like what do I got to do to fix that? And then to go, do it, find the tools, try 15, 16 different tools. Whatever it takes, none of those work, or one of them is going to work. So insert that tool into that place. Boom, you're good to go.

Speaker 2: 1:33:43

Yeah, take a Swiss Army knife to your problem and see what it fixes For sure. Yeah, I like that.

Speaker 1: 1:33:50

I really like that. I like this army knife.

Speaker 2: 1:33:52

Yeah yeah, Well, that's so good. I haven't actually owned one in years. I used to own one and I lost it out. I went camping somewhere. I was raging.

Speaker 1: 1:34:02

But you said take a Swiss Army knife to your problems. Now, I like that. I actually had a conversation with a guy yesterday. He was asking me about something and I was like man, google coping mechanisms or whatever, and then you'll find a list. Try them all. Something works, keep it, yeah. The rest, if it doesn't work, throw it out.

Speaker 2: 1:34:21

Yeah, there's one for you If you're one or both of your sons eventually came to you and said, in relation to what you previously mentioned, like how do you feel comfortable on your own skin? What would you say to them?

Speaker 1: 1:34:38

What are the obvious answers? To practice self-awareness reflection daily. My sons are going to see me doing these things. They're going to see me journaling. They're going to see me meditating. Hopefully they're going to get curious and they're going to want to do it themselves. Do it with me. We'll make it a men's group right there in the living room.

Speaker 2: 1:35:08

Oh, I like that. Yeah, create a little triangle and I've got bookshelves.

Speaker 1: 1:35:12

Oh yeah, dude, I'm already making my band. I'm already putting my band together. Dude, I mean, how do you be comfortable in your own skin? It's about gaining experiences, building self-confidence and self-efficacy. So the only reason that I can build self-efficacy knowing that I can do a thing is to go out and do the thing and maybe fail a few times and then be like, oh well, I can't do the thing, so I should try harder to practice learning how to do the thing. So learning how to learn for one thing, and then putting that into place, and then just try a whole bunch of shit and I can cultivate that in my sons. I can take them out and be like hey, today, this weekend, we're going to go out in the woods. You guys want to go out in the woods? Yeah, okay, cool, while we're out there, we're going to learn how to build a fire together out of nothing but sticks. You want to do that? Yeah, let's do that. And then, when they do it, it's going to be hard, but when they do it, they're going to be like, oh, I can't believe I did that. We're going to get prepared. Watch some videos, do whatever we got to do to get prepared to go do it, go do the thing, build that self-efficacy, and then, if I do my job right, my sons aren't going to need to ask me hey dad, how do I become from my own skin? They're just going to naturally be that way.

Speaker 2: 1:36:42

Oh, I like that. That's very good If I do my job right.

Speaker 1: 1:36:46

I mean, I may be wrong in that, but that's just how I feel, yeah sort of lead by example kind of thing. Oh, all day, every day, man, all day, every day. And that comes back to that. It doesn't matter how I feel, right, Like their little eyes are watching me constantly. So when I'm there around them, I got to be on. I can't let the little things in my life interfere. I can't let them see me flying off the handle because I don't know certain deadlines weren't mad or something you know arbitrarily like that. When I'm around them, I have to be around them, I have to be there for them. So hopefully they're not going to have to ask me questions like that, but if they do, you know that's a problem for future markers.

Speaker 2: 1:37:36

There it goes again. Someone said that I actually threw out the ask you about was you in a previous question. You were talking about generating a skill set to be just a decent human being, like, do you think there's certain skills that are an absolute must just to be a decent human being, or what? Or is it variety, or what do you think? What do you think that skill says?

Speaker 1: 1:38:04

Well, a little preface for that. It's going to vary by individual right, depending on what type of life circumstances. You got what you want to do, what who you want to be. But yeah, I think, man, I see this every single day One of the number one skill sets to be a good human is to be articulate, be able to take a complex idea and communicate it clearly. Man, if more people could do that, everything the world would be such a better place. Right? And then learn how to ask the right questions, Learn how to not be so quick to judgment of other people, because everybody's got their own shit. So I would say empathy. Empathy is a key soft skill, man, and a lot of people don't practice enough of. I even. I have issues with it here. Straight up, empathy was something I always struggled with. I don't know why. I asked my therapist one time, years and years ago hey, do you think I'm a psychopath? She said, well, the fact that you're asking me that question means that you're probably not a psychopath. And I was like, hey, that's good, because I had such an issue with feeling emotions and like giving a giving a shit about other people, right, like I struggled with that, and so it was a soft skill that I had to cultivate for myself. And I really believe that studying history has helped me with that, because reading, especially like reading about the transatlantic slave trade and some of the slave narratives and what those individuals went through, and then just so many different examples through history where people have suffered, and I've read their personal accounts and it just I put myself in their place, you know, and I'm like dang, like people really go through some hard shit, you know. So that can it can be cultivated through intentional practice, and that's another skill being able to practice something intentionally, on purpose, like focus, but then communications, one of those skills that you can never be too good at it, you know. But then there's also more. See those. Those are more like abstract concepts, I would say, but there are some practical things that I think people need to cultivate to make them better. Humans and people are going to probably disagree with this, but breathing exercises in the moment, right? So I've been waiting for an opportunity to plug this in your, in this talk, so now is the time. There's this thing called a physiological sigh. Have you ever heard of it?

Speaker 2: 1:40:41

I think I have, and if it's what I think it is, I get so much grief for it from my family.

Speaker 1: 1:40:47

Well, andrew, andrew Huberman from Stanford has talked about it on multiple podcasts he's been on, and it's just, it's one breath. You go in as deep as you can fill your lungs up and then, when you get to as full as you think you can go, you just give a little, one more little bump and then it's a slow, extended exhale. Is that what you were thinking?

Speaker 2: 1:41:09

Nope, no, it wasn't. I have this thing I do where I just do like one really long sigh and I don't know why.

Speaker 1: 1:41:18

Physiologically I think it's like a natural stress release, but it lacks shoulders elongates the neck, yeah, yeah, lacks all that internal stuff that's all bunched up. But that's what the physiological sigh does. But there's science behind it, right? So when you're coming in and your lungs are getting super, duper, duper full, and then it's that little last inhale, yeah, and it opens up the avioli, which you know. That's where the exchange happens, that oxygen and CO2 exchange happens, and you got that elongated exhale and that's when everything just melts away. And a lot of people that I've talked this to, man, they can't, they can't get past that little last inhale. At the end Everybody always laughs and I'm like, just trust me, it works. So, if you can, that's a, that's a, that's a skill set, right, like that's a tool that can be used. And for me, I practice breathing exercises six, seven times a day, easy, like I give. I give presentations at my job every now and again, right before I walk into a room, I do five physiological sighs Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, right back to back. And when I walk in the room, I'm cool as a cucumber, like, hey, what's up everybody? How's it going? Let's talk about whatever I'm about to talk about. So I mean being able to find what relaxes you and makes you more tolerable to other people, and then cultivating that being able to put it to use to me like that's a. you can't put a price tag on that Because I'm me.

Speaker 2: 1:42:51

I know I'm tough to be around sometimes.

Speaker 1: 1:42:53

So if I can develop a toolkit to make me a little bit more digestible for people, it's going to take me places man.

Speaker 2: 1:43:03

Yeah, yeah, 100%. I already think you're. You're quite cool. Anyway, I didn't really think you'd need a breathing exercise to do it, but yeah, you'd be surprised, man, you'd be surprised.

Speaker 1: 1:43:12

It's all a facade.

Speaker 2: 1:43:14

That's all of us. To be fair, we all have our off days, don't we? Oh yeah, do you believe we've been talking for an hour and 45 minutes?

Speaker 1: 1:43:23

Yeah, I was just looking at that. I've only got this room till two.

Speaker 2: 1:43:26

Yeah, don't worry, we'll wrap it up, but before we do, just out of genuine curiosity here you said you're in time. That's why you're the curious old man man, Exactly, man, Exactly. You said you know, when your sons are older, you've already, you know, quote unquote getting your band ready. Genuinely curious, Genuinely, In fact. That could potentially answer that question we were discussing before we started recording. What's a question you've never been asked? What's the band name?

Speaker 1: 1:44:00

Oh, what's the band name? Oh, yeah, yeah, I don't know, man Probably.

Speaker 2: 1:44:10

It's going to be history really.

Speaker 1: 1:44:12

I was going to say something and the Kings. So yeah, marcellus and the Kings, because my oldest son's middle name is Marcellus.

Speaker 2: 1:44:24

Oh, strong, very strong, because you're really the middle Kings I like it.

Speaker 1: 1:44:29

You're going to make old school punk rock music, if that's what they're into, oh yeah, probably, or maybe. Norwegian black metal. I don't know Whatever rap it is.

Speaker 2: 1:44:40

Oh, no, here. Oh yeah, On the thing of Norway, I have recently really gotten into, you know, our Selvix music. He was the guy that did the music for the hit TV show Vikings man. I've got all his stuff on vinyl.

Speaker 1: 1:44:57

He is so good, he's a vinyl nerd now.

Speaker 2: 1:45:01

Oh yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:45:02

Yeah, I've heard it's come up on some of my man like the playlist that Spotify manufacturers. I've gotten some of the songs from Vikings. I listened to movie epic movie soundtracks when I work out sometimes.

Speaker 2: 1:45:16

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, have you seen 14.

Speaker 1: 1:45:19

Peaks. No, I haven't that, nims Perja documentary where he climbs all of the tallest peaks you know in the Himalaya and the Karakoram, like, and he does it in like seven months, Like the dudes are freaking animal. I suggest that go watch it. The soundtrack is like super epic. So I watched that movie one night and then the next day I was on a. I was on the ski yard machine just like climbing this mountain man. Oh, it's so empty. People think I'm ridiculous. Yeah, I really don't care, I really do not care, I'll send you.

Speaker 2: 1:45:54

I'll send you this YouTube video. I've somebody did like a mashup of Vikings music, but it's from in our Selvic and it's like the better version of one of his songs. I can't remember what it's called, but, man, it is the ultimate Jim music. I'll send it to you and, if you tell me, the new PR after that challenge accepted, we'll see what happens.

Speaker 1: 1:46:19

man that's exciting.

Speaker 2: 1:46:21

Yeah, that's cool man. We'll wrap it up there, but, as always, I'd love to sort of share your content and wherever people can find you. So for people who want to hear more about your own journey and what you get up to working, people find you.

Speaker 1: 1:46:38

Yeah, I mean, like I said earlier, I've been I've actually been off social media completely for I don't even know how long now six months or so but I'll check my Instagram periodically from here on. It's just Marcus A Thornton. I'm at Marcus A Thornton on Instagram. Honestly, that's probably the best way. I'm on LinkedIn as well. It's Marcus Thornton. You can find me on there. I use LinkedIn mainly just for, like, professional purposes, but you can find me on there and outside of that. I mean, I don't know, I don't think there is any other way for now, but yeah. To be fair, you're probably. Maybe soon I'll have a website for something, yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:47:26

To be fair, you're a wise man and amongst a lot of us here getting rid of that social media and probably just doing the absolute bare minimum. If I get to the stage where I'm only checking Instagram periodically, I'll be doing as well as yourself, sir, but.

Speaker 1: 1:47:42

Well, I mean we'll see Whatever business standpoint, it makes perfect sense like it's a tool, like I said earlier. So if you're not, if an individual is not using those tools to help propel themselves forward, and whatever field they're in, then you're just cheating yourself, you know.

Speaker 2: 1:47:58

Yeah, yeah, 100% Right, we'll leave it there, marcus, thanks a million for coming on, and I'd love to have you back on the show anytime, brother. So, yeah, just let you know?

Speaker 1: 1:48:09

Yeah, we'll work it out. Man, it's great to chit chat with you. It's always a pleasure man.

Speaker 2: 1:48:15

Cheers man. There you go, folks. That concludes today's episode. I hope you got a lot of value out of the content provided. If you did, then please do consider subscribing to the Curious Ulsterman podcast on your preferred streaming service and leaving us a five star reading and review. That really helps the podcast grow. Thank you very much. If you would like to follow the Curious Ulsterman on the various social media channels to view upcoming content, the Curious Ulsterman is on Facebook, instagram, twitter, tiktok, youtube and Twitch all at the Curious Ulsterman. If you know someone who would benefit from this content, then please do share it with your friends and family on the various social media channels. You can also check out our website at wwwthecuriousulstermancom, where you can view our full catalogue of episodes across all the seasons. If you would like to get in touch with the Curious Ulsterman, then please do get in contact on the various social media channels mentioned, or there is a voice note option on our website. As always, folks, I'm open to suggestions to make this podcast a better experience for you, the listener, if you tuned in today for the first time, thank you very much and I hope you got value from the content I provide If you're one of our seasoned listeners. Thank you so much for the continuous support. I am eternally grateful. Until next time. I wish you all the best. Bye for now.