Feel The Fear and Do It Anyway (Mental Health)

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Hello everyone. And welcome to the curious Ulsterman podcast. The podcast designed to give you the tools you need to thrive as an adult. And today's guest is Colt Gordon, and he's going to be discussing mental health. He is a veteran and a full-time counselor, and his story is just incredible. And you'll also be glad to know that he will be a repeat guest on this podcast. He is very kindly agreed to come on at least once a quarter to give his insights on modern mental health and the actionable steps you can take to improve your mental health in all areas. So without further delay here is my chat with Colt. Cool. Thank you very much for coming on the podcast today.

What is up Jonathan Bell? How are you done ?

Not too bad. Um, uh, I'm really glad you're here. Uh, and I also would like to let the audience know that cold is going to be a repeat guest on this podcast. It's going to come on at least once a quarter , uh, and discuss all things, mental health, which is so important these days, especially with COVID and we've been stuck in doors all this time. You know, I'm sure that's not done any theaters for our mental health this year, but yeah, I'm really glad that I've got someone of your caliber on to come on and chat about mental health as someone's quite knowledgeable as well. Um, so I'm lucky enough to know you called, but for the audience who don't know you , um, could you just give your life story and how that's led you to a career in mental health?

Yeah, absolutely. So thanks so much for having me on it's it's an honor and yes, mental health is very important and I have a lot of nuance views. So I'm hoping that this will be a fun conversation and I'm not going to be speaking from a textbook. I'm going to be speaking from real life experience, but also I'll bring in some of the other research too , when it's necessary. So I grew up in a very alcoholic environment. I mean, my father was, he was alcoholic and he , um , was not interested in taking care of that. So that obviously has some ramifications. And my mother also dealt with some mental health issues , um, being in that marriage. And so a lot of domestic violence and had a, a lot of Metta medical trauma. I had Kawasaki's disease. I had a full blood transfusion as well, and I just struggled with , um, being happy from a very young age. I remember by the time I was 15, my parents had a very, very traumatic divorce that really affected my brother and myself. And interestingly that divorce happened right away. My mother and father had bought us a bunch of video games. So I think from a very young age, we learned how to not deal with our emotions, how to not actually feel the pain of what was going on as traumatic as it was, how to numb out with something video games, right. And , and that's nice in the moment, but it's not nice longterm . Um, it doesn't actually create an environment of emotional regulation as I like to call it. So , uh, by the time I was 17, I was jumping back and forth between my mother's and father's house. And I was homeless and I was just couch surfing and a youth pastor that I used to know when I was at my mother's house, he decided to pick me up and say, Hey, man, I want you to live with me. So I ended up going to my third high school. I was 17 years old. And I remember I acted out violently as I had before , um, gave a kid a seizure and I got kicked out of that high school. And he said one of the most important things to me that I've ever experienced, that it really was life changing for me. He said, you know, Colt , we're very disappointed in you. Um, this is not something we expected. We took you into our place. And, but you know what , um, we thought about, Hey, you know, maybe move back into your mom. We're needing to move, which was an option actually. So maybe you need to move somewhere else. Um, but we're not going to give up on you. We're going to be in your corner. Cause I think everyone else has given up on you. And , uh , we're going to be here for you and help you graduate high school, no matter what. And I had never heard that kind of , um, healthy reinforcement that, that unconditional kind of love, and that changed everything for me. I know graduating high school. Um, and I just, it was so healing to have that. Uh, and then I joined the Marine Corps. And let me tell you the Marine Corps is, and I also had a lot of unresolved issues. I mean, I just, I , I never really dealt with my depression. I had a lot of suicidal ideations thoughts of dying. Um, didn't really join the military for patriotic patriotic reasons I joined because I needed, I needed a mission and that gave me a mission. So , um, I actually had an eating disorder age 19 that I developed in the Marine Corps. And that was, it's something I wouldn't wish on my enemy. I mean, you have to , you have to eat three times a day, man. I mean, hopefully, and it's , it's helpful to eat. And I was starving myself. Uh, I was overeating bingeing and purging. It was a nightmare. And I dealt with that for six straight years and it also added to my depression, add it to the suicide and a time ago out of the military , um, when I was 23, in 2013, I hit rock bottom and I was homeless again. And , uh , while I had not acted out violently anymore, as, as I did in my past, I was acting violently within if you will. I was not very kind to myself. And I remember a social worker told me, you know, Cole , you're not weak for having all these issues that you have. In fact, you're probably stronger than most. You just need the tools. That was another one of those moments. Like, like the youth pastor said to me, like, we're going to be in your corner. She said, I just need the tools, man. And that, that also was very changed. My course, I ended up going to a treatment center in 2013 for about four, four months. And they gave me an opportunity to, and it was absolutely healing. It was amazing. I loved it. It was so important for me to have that time, just to work on myself and to , um, focus on my healing. And I had a therapist say, Hey, would you like to run a group therapy session with us? And I said, I said, sure. And it was one of those moments where the kind of everything and got oriented really fast. And it felt like I found my calling. Um , I'm supposed to be , I'm supposed to be in the healing arts, if you will. I'm supposed to be a , a mentor teacher of some kind. And that was , um , that's why I decided to do. And I went to school and I got student worker of the year. Everything just kept falling into place. And here I am. Now speaking to you, someone that knows what they're talking about when it comes to mental health, when it comes to getting out of your way and becoming the best version of yourself. And I have a lot of people think it's not something that I ever did on my own. Uh , but it's also something that I took responsibility for. And one day at a time here I am.

That's just an incredible story. And what I really like about it as well is that it's not even my story, but it fills me with hope like that . Like , it's kind of like we all, we've all got some form of trauma or something we need to deal with, you know, nobody's immune , uh, despite what the Instagram filters say. Um , yeah, exactly. I mean, and what really inspires me about your story is the fact that yes, you did struggle for a long time, but as soon as you find that calling, it was like you said, everything just fell into place. And it was just so natural and NY , you know, you're doing something which is, I imagine incredibly rewarding with a high job satisfaction and probably jumping out of bed that, you know, you get to help people. Um, yeah . So, yeah, man, I can't wait to have for the future conversations we're going to have on this podcast. I think we're going to help a lot of people. Uh, I know we certainly I'll get a lot out of it as well. I ha I did have a bit of mild depression, probably about six, seven years ago from working a hundred hour weeks. So that never helps recommend I don't recommend that. Um, but yeah, thankfully , yeah , thankfully I was, frankly, I was fine in the end. It just a little bit of decompression and all of as well, but yeah, I , I have had friends who , um, one in particular who suffered from very, very deep depression and unfortunately he didn't get the help he needed for a long time. He's, he's better now , but he just needlessly suffered and well, that's what I'm hoping to avoid. And this podcast, at least with the audience, like if the audience are hearing this and they know deep dine , that something's not quite right, or what you said was quite performed that you really struggled to be happy for a long time. And while I think that's, you know, happiness should not be a permanent state of mind, that would just be unhealthy despite what, you know , the advertising agency say, you know, you do need to experience the full spectrum of human emotion. Um, absolutely. Yeah. And you know, it's, I think it's easy to fall into this trap. Isn't it all they see the celebrities are , you know, people see that they're not exactly where they want to be in life and there's all these mind traps that, you know, you can fall into. Um, and it's kind of like, well, at least on this podcast, at least in our episodes, if we can help people avoid that in the form of recognizing there is a problem even privately getting the help they need. And , uh, and later on in the episode, we are going to discuss how to find the correct help getting a good therapist, not just any old therapist, but that's my mission, at least. And on the mental health front, and especially , um, for 18 year olds. I mean, for me personally, I was thinking about this just before our interview. And if I could give one piece of advice to my 18 year old self, it would be go to therapy. Like even if you've either , even if you think that yuck your grand and stuff, just having someone to chat to, or, you know, go over something that, you know, dolls ball to you a little bit. Like we all , we're all going to experience anxiety or depression or something from time to time. So why not have a professional help you through that rather than suffering in silence?

Absolutely. I wanted to go. Would you like to talk about that? Yeah . Yeah , absolutely. Yeah. I want to go back to what you said before, if that's okay, is our stories and bringing help because , you know, I've told my story so many times now and I'm open to doing , I love telling my story. I think it reinforces the work I've done and it brings, but it's interesting when it does inspire somebody, like you hear my story and I'm like, Oh, that was inspiring . I'm glad to hear that. I'm glad it brought you hope. I think so many of us have stories in us that can bring people hope. And I want to say that pain is pain. Like, don't compare your story to my story. And it was people listened to this say, okay, well, he went through a lot and I didn't even tell you half of it really. Um , so , but don't compare it because man, it's amazing. Sometimes I hear the simplest things that people standing up to their parents for the first time in their life. And that's inspiring, man. That's like, we all know what it's like to kind of stay at that even, even , uh , already called the homeostasis right. Of what our normal is. And then we know it would require courage to expand from that, but just the idea of actually doing it and manifesting that that's so inspiring no matter what it is. So I thank you for telling me that brought you hope and for telling me why it right. You hope that was , um, is encouraging. I'm gonna keep doing it. And I want all of us to do that.

It's um, it is , it's exactly what you say. Everyone has a story to tell and yeah . What you said was really good as well. And the, you know, don't compare stories, you know, I know of the , in mental health, there's a comparison truck . Um, so you know, a one quote with it's always stuck with me is, you know, don't compare your chapter five with someone's chapter 20 or, you know yeah. You know, I mean, like it's so easy, like, especially I'm not going to take a monkey , gonna take, you know, digs it social media, I think they're tools and they can be used wisely or badly, but it's so easy to, you know, go on to your favorite celebrities, Instagram or Twitter page or whatever, and see everything you want and then compare it with your own life. And , and suddenly you fall into the comparison trap and it's like, well, you know, you do start to beat yourself up that you're not a certain level of success that you're not meeting your own expectations or the expectations of your parents or guardians. It's, it's, it's a very unhealthy way to live. It's a very bad way to live. In my opinion, you know, you're not living life to the fullest or , or as it should be. Um, but also I liked the example you said off the first time someone stands up to their parents, you know, because as much as we love parents and you know, there are, there are unfortunately parents out there who just put it, frankly should not be parents. You know , um, those, you know, certain levels of toxicity, there's also, you know, parents who like prop three, no fault of their own, do things or act a certain way and don't realize how harmful that is to their children, you know? Um, and something that just, when you said, like , uh , got an example in my head, so this year was a year that for me personally, I got very, very strict with like personal boundaries. So I find, yeah, so before I like, I'm a very chill guy. Now, it doesn't, I don't get, I don't get very much upset or riled up by most things, but at the same time, like for example, my workplace can be quite and, you know, people within the work environment can occasionally get, I don't want to say nasty, but you know, can be quite blunt and say things that perhaps in layer layer down the line they regret. Right . But I always, because it was just waters off a dock water off a dock spark. I don't , I would just say to folk talk , he's having a bad day. I don't care. But at the same time, well , I didn't realize was the harm that was doing in the people then fall . It's okay to talk to people like that. It's okay to, you know , um, be sometimes quite unprofessional. So this year when I, and both my personal and professional life established very clear boundaries, all of my relationships have improved every single one. Yeah. Wow. And, you know , uh, in a professional setting as well , um, you know, where , uh, I did have a, you know, I'll be totally honest. It was a very awkward confrontation with a work colleague who said something, which was quite , um, what's the word I'm looking for. It was quite demeaning or at least attempted to demean me cause I know my own worth , you know, but eh , attempted to domain and I very quickly said, that's not hard . That's not on, don't ever speak to me like that again, caught him off guard and you know, yeah . He did apologize and sends, but since then, you know, has been a very professional. And I don't want to say , I don't want to, I wouldn't go as far as say friendly, but we're, we're both on good terms. I know for me, that's, you know, that's a big thing in the, as I said before, you know, people saying bad things about me or, you know, I'm not going to get along with everybody. And I neither do. I intend to , um, you know, as, as kind of like, there's this almost this, this insane need to be liked by everyone. And it's like, dude, you don't even like everyone. It's just like , you know , um, so for me , uh , it was interesting that, you know, th th the very clear change that's even something so simple as establishing boundaries to protect your, my own mental health , um, has, has made. And that was such a small, actionable step. Um, right . Yeah. Uh , what about yourself? Is that something you've ever come across and experienced?

Oh, absolutely. I think I wanted to go back to something you said was about comparison is something, Jenny, I love your quote. And I also have another one from Jenny Schaefer . She said, I believe it's from her is compare and despair. Like when we compare ourselves to other people in general, whether it's your chapter five to their chapter 20, it is not going to do a lot. It's not useful. It's not, it doesn't serve you well. So comparing despair is something I like to carry with me because man, what about just taking care of just being okay? Can I just be out okay. Because something else you've said, we, we , it's not healthy. It's not healthy to try to be happy all the time, but it's also, it's also not healthy to be sad and depressed all the time, which is somewhere I've been. So let's find that gray area of , I just want to be okay, man. So that's something I've worked really hard on just being okay when I'm happy. Great. When I'm sad, let's deal with that. Let's let's feel it. And being okay is a good spot to be. Um, but back to boundaries. Yes. I mean, that's one of the goals in therapy I would say is, is really clarifying. Who am I? Who is, who am I really at my core? Who am I, what am I willing to put up with? And I use the tennis court metaphor. If you've heard that. I don't know if you have a lot of people enjoy this. It's um , here am I on my side of the tennis court? Here you are. And we have a net. So there's some connection there, right? There's some permeability. However, like we have our side, right. And we want to play a game that works a game. That's, it's, it's fun for us. And it's good for everyone. People want to watch it. Um, but a lot of times we're playing a game. We're playing relationships that don't work. That's not fun for both parties. In fact, we have some people even say, you don't even need this net . Screw that. Let me come over here. Let me bring a bowling ball and let, let let's just pretend like we're having fun. And a lot of times we us over here, like, Oh yeah, that's fine. We're having fun, but you're not. But at least you have somebody, right. And that's what I call a mesh mint. It's when you're a meshed with another, your, your not very well-defined, your self is not clear. And that's always drained. I think we've all been in situations. When we walk away where we get in our car, like, Oh, I'm back with the date or whatever it is. Like, I feel like I'm back with me. You know ? So boundaries. I like to keep it real simple. ABC one, two, three in the sense of the metaphor of tennis, right? So it's got to be a game that works for everybody. And you have to start saying, Hey, that's an out, I score, Hey, that's an out, you score, whatever, right. You guys are getting real honest and saying, that works for me. That doesn't work for me. Hey, that works for me. That doesn't work for me. A lot of people start getting good at what doesn't work for them. And then they forget about talking about what does work for them. Oh man, that was a great game because you did this because you're getting better at serving because you, right . Like this relationship is working for me because you are asserting yourself. I really like that. And you're doing it in a way that works. You being tactful. Can you keep doing that? You got to reinforce. What's the work , what works. Otherwise, it's just a punitive relationship. Only time you hear from the other person is when you suck. And this metaphor I love because it's like a sport, right? People like watching a game that works. It's , it's kind of like music, right? If a music's out, out of tune or there's , um , I'm not into music too much, but , um , some of those words , um, it's , it's like in harmony, right? People are like something off here. They don't want to watch it. But when you can really play a game that works, you've seen an inspiring couples. Right. But inspiring friendships. It's like, wow, that's that's uh , why, why is that inspiring? There's a rhythm to it. There's a, there's a , there's a chemistry to it. And then we've all seen those relationships where it's like, okay, this is an a one-up relationship. This person is being the God here. And this person is just wherever you say. And that's never, that's never good to see. So for me, absolutely. I mean, grew up growing up in an alcoholic environment, first of all, is that makes sense that, that metaphor

A hundred percent, I think it's grit. That's, that's a , I wish I had heard that metaphor a long time ago. It would , uh, it would have helped. Yeah .

Yeah. Why is it helpful? Because I , I th I find it helpful to , I just kind of forget, because I've been using it so much.

It's, it's helpful because it's so relatable, especially, you know , um, when you describe it as, you know, a game that's enjoyable for everybody, because I often have we seen friends or been in relationships ourselves that we either know is toxic, but it's a relationship anyway, it's better than nothing. So to speak. And then your friends and then your friends are from the outside, or like, you know, that that's not a healthy relationship from like , say perspective that this is not that we're not enjoying watching this, but it's exactly it's exactly, as you say, when you go got genuine wholesome relationships with family, a significant other or whatever it is, like people are like, like I've seen some of my friends and relationships and I am genuinely filled with joy inside. I'm like, God, they are so good for each other. Like, it makes me feel really wholesome and like opposite . So happy to see them happy. So that's why I really enjoy that, that metaphor, so to speak. And it's relatable in our own lives. We can, that's something you can apply immediately. Like, is this a fun game? Like, it's, there's a give and take relationship in the professional, on the personal setting.

Absolutely awesome, man. Thanks for explaining that. Cause it's , um , I'm glad to hear that it's helpful. I mean, I've used it a lot in, you know, the, the , the, the type where it's an meshed, we all know that's not healthy. And then there's another side of that too, where you say, you know, I'm going to blow up the other side of the tennis court. I'm going to blow it up. So then I don't have to play with anybody. Cause now I'm assertive. And so, I mean, but that's not funny there . I mean, you're going to play tennis by yourself. And a lot of people end up doing that. They're so sick of being violated. They're so sick of, of really not enforcing their own boundaries. That's really what it is violating themselves. And because you're injured , you have to be in charge of your own boundaries, by the way, it's in the conversation. Yeah . And, and so they blow up the other side and I call that emotional, like no one can get close to me, but really is that boundaries, if you have no one to actually use your boundaries with, are they boundaries? I say no. And so really what we're trying to find is relationships like this, it's a back and forth. It's a rhythm. Um, there's some, there's some connection obviously, but there's that boundary. There's a net. Um, I am me, you're you? I know where I begin. And now I know where I end. I know where you begin and I know where you end and that's, that's healthy. So for me, I think that it's so interesting. Cause I think a , a good therapist will really start at the family will start at the roots . Not, not necessarily has to cause it can kind of be inferred, but I think it's helpful because those are our first relationships. And for instance, for me, my first relationship was with an alcoholic father and a mentally ill mother and boundaries, forget about it. There's no boundaries. It's like, you know, in fact, in those environments, in my environment, my experiences, I had to take care and make sure my dad didn't get too off. And my mom didn't get too sad. So if those are my first relationships then, and I develop a role and I call that role caretaker. We all develop roles growing up and the role keeps the system, the family going. But as we mature, hopefully as we mature, we want to start developing our authentic self and get out of that role because the role is there to keep the family working regardless of how dysfunctional it is to keep that system working. But as you mature and leave the nest, the hope is that you can self differentiate. You can become more authentic, more individuated from that system and become a self. A lot of times that doesn't happen. So in therapy, what's helpful is we bring awareness. Oh, okay. I'm deciding I am perpetuating my caretaking that I do with my mother and my father, because that's my normal, that's my homeostasis. And so I've actively had to, I'm always going to be a caring person. There's one thing to be caring. And there's another thing to be caretaking and care-taking is when I put myself on the back burner to make sure everyone else is okay. I take the temperature of the room to figure out who I need to be. That doesn't work. That's not fulfilling. That's always a draining venture. And so I have little by little start with my , with my parents was like, Hey, look, I'm not going to do this anymore. Um, I am an adult and I'm going to make my own decisions and you're just going to be okay with it and took a lot of courage to do that. Interestingly, they responded fine, but I , I had to do it. Otherwise. I just going to keep that system going and I've had to do it with women because growing up with an alcoholic father, just trying to make sure dad doesn't get too off and then emotionally caretaking my mother. So I find myself in relationships all the time with women where I don't even know if I liked them, but I'm staying in a relationship with them. Cause they like me. And I would do that over and over again. That's my normal. So that's my comfort zone, but I was never fulfilled and I was never , um, so a little by little I've gotten really good at ending relationships, being a good ender saying no, letting people like the tennis court metaphor, letting them know like, Hey, that doesn't work for me. And it's so amazing. How many people really haven't heard that kind of self-respecting language? Like what do you mean that doesn't work for you? And people are so inspired by that. They're like moved. Like I want that too . I want to be that way. I want to be someone that says, Hey, that's not okay with me, but you know what it is. Okay. This, this and this. And so it's been a big, it's been a, it's been a long journey and it's , um, I recommend it. It's actually quite exhilarating and fulfilling as you've said, right?

A hundred percent you said a few things that I want to touch on. And also something I've never heard of. Um , but it's like when you , you do build up that courage to establish your boundaries or admitting, I need to see a therapist or admitting I need help. It's always comes back to one of my favorite quotes in the world from Sonica and that is, we often suffer more in imagination than in reality. It's exactly, as you said, you know, like, you know, it took a lot of courage to say that to your parents and I'm sure you were expecting it to go mad and you know, arguments and stuff. But actually I spent , okay. You know, and it is exhilarating. It is liberating to do that. And it's taking those baby steps. Like you don't have to do something massive. It could be something as simple as going to that jerk in the office who, you know, isn't pleasant to you. And you're saying, don't say that, please. Don't say that to me again, like go through like obviously the professional Avenue , all of , if you are being bullied, you report it don't feel guilty for reporting it. Um, but yeah, if it's just someone you don't get along with, and they're just not being pleasant, it's tick that tick one little baby step and say, yeah, I don't appreciate being spoken to like that. You'd be surprised how much taken aback people will be. And we'll probably be like, Oh, crop icon, Whoa, that's really caught me off guard actually. And they probably won't do it again. If they do, then you've got to obviously take that next step, take the next baby step. And unfortunately, if that means like reporting people, so will be it because you've gotta be like, take care of your own health, your mental health. You , you come first, like again, it's still all by balance . There's, there's a balance between narcissism and taking care of yourself as you deserve. Um, so, but something you did say that I've never heard. I'm sorry. Were you going to say something?

Well, I was going to say something on the idea of people will test you. So I work with people. I mean, they're , they're getting off of heroin and cocaine and I mean, I've seen some very dysfunctional families. And so there will be families that will retaliate. They will. So I'm just coming from a , my family is pretty dysfunctional and they still , they responded it . They were like, Oh, okay, well what do you know? But there are some families that man , they are very toxic and very abusive and they may say, okay, right away, like, okay. However, their homeostasis, for instance, if you're a caretaker, is you being a caretaker. So unconsciously, they're going to keep treating you that way and tell they realize that that's not you anymore. And so it's at the end of the day, you're the one that has to enforce your own boundaries. And if you ha and if they keep crossing your boundaries and you're not enforcement, I, I enforce my boundaries call . I , you did, at one time, you have to know where your line is, what are my standards? What am I willing to put up with and not willing to put up with when you're in tennis and it's an out and you call it out. Yeah, I did. I called him out. I said, that's not okay with me. And I , I score a point there. Right? Well, you don't do it the next time. What the hell? So it's gotta be something that you consistently do now. Certain things sure. Like you're not allowed to talk to me that way and they keep talking to you that way. And , and you tell them again, tell them three times then yeah. Go up to HR and talk and bring to the top side. That's for sure. I'm just wanting to make a point that , um, if you've been in this role for a long time, you're gonna have to re reinforce this consistently. Cause people will test you with , they're used to the Jonathan Bell that they've seen for years. And then now you want to like be self-respecting, you know, and there's could be some, some people that are absolutely, you know, evil about it. And um, but most people are just used to the old you. And so it's your responsibility to create a new homeostasis for people to know who you are. And that's why I always go back to relationships and knowing your original relationships, if you know that no thyself , right. Tim gnosis , then you can absolutely. Um, from, from that insight, be effective moving forward, otherwise I'm just going to assert myself and that can get kind of clunky. So yeah,

Yeah. 100% . Like , I really like what you just said, there are no vice self it's kind of, it's kind of like if you know, truly who you are and truly what you stand for and what your values are, you know, you'll be self-respecting anyway, because you'll know. Well, actually I don't like this or I don't like being spoken to like the , um, and yeah, no , by self I'm gonna , I'm gonna repeat that often. I think.

And also if you know what your dysfunctional self is, for instance, your , your family's system, self, your family of origin self, and what that system was like, if you know that, then you can know how to overcome it, because that will be your knee jerk the rest of your life, perhaps, unless you see it as it is, you know? Oh my , my dad was alcoholic. My mom was mentally ill here, dah , dah , dah , dah . And they came from that family and they can , right . Um, you know, your family tree, when you can know that, then you can overcome it. So,

Yeah. Yeah. That's incredibly liberating as, I mean, like it's, it's, it's easy to play victim, isn't it? And say, there's nothing I can do. This is just the handout , but then it's an easy to see , but then it's , it's very difficult to go, okay. I'm no longer going to be a victim, but that's liberating because it means there's something you can do about it. There is an element within your control, which comes back to what's in your control, your boundaries, and it's your personal responsibility to maintain your own mental health. Nobody else is going to do it for you. Right . But something you did say, and this is something I've never heard of before. And you were like within a family there there's rules. Like that's the rule you grow into, which is very interesting. It makes sense. Now that you've said it, but once you leave the nest so to speak , uh , or you're ready to take on a new role to not be the old you, how do you, how do you grow into that new rule and how do you find out what that is in a healthy way?

Wow. That's a good question. So I think I'm going to be doing that. The rest of my life is why is one of the reasons I reacted that way? Because I think we're always growing. We're always evolving, right? We're becoming, as we expand in, let me put it this way. We all need to start a shoot for right. We need something to orient us. You know, I'm in LA right now. And I want to go to New York. For instance, if I have no aim of going to New York and I just get on that plane, I'm the pilot, or am I going? I'm just gonna go in circles until I crashed , landed in Oklahoma and ran out of gas. So I need an AME . I need , you know, I think this is what I value. I think this is important to me. And so I start with that. What do you, what do you value what's important to you? What makes you come alive? And a lot of times people don't address that because they're so depressed or they're so preoccupied with what so-and-so has that I don't have I'm okay. If you were fulfilled, if you were doing what you love , what would that be? What would that thing that makes it come alive? B let's let's put that star in the sky. And so again, the metaphor of New York, right? That's a direction that's East, from where I'm at and East, isn't something that you can necessarily accomplish, but it is a direction you can align yourself with. And as you as a zigzag , cause there's no straight lines as a plane, never travels in straight lines , constantly making adjustments. I find I get better and better and better at making those adjustments, having that accountability, having that radar system that keeps me aligned. And then as I get closer and closer to the destination of East, or excuse me, the, of New York, as I'm aligned with East, I find that actually this whole time I've wanted to go to Toronto, but only by going towards something and having something a narrow way was able to figure that out. And then again, once I get to Toronto, that's a goal within East, okay. Now I want to go to Greenland. Now I wanted to go to the UK. Um, it's all East from where I'm at and goals within that. So it really, to me is about value identification. And that's simply is what's important to you. What would be meaningful because if we're constantly trait that we can all find happiness right now, go to the streets and buy some drugs or whatever. Right. We can all find something to make us happy right now. But what about something that we're making meaningful across time? Um , and that requires a value identification and then smart goals underneath that , um , accountability. And so to answer your question, I would start there and then little by little , um, a lot of journaling, little by little finding who you are is always a process executing that is , is always a process and it becomes a, I am process. And what I mean by that, I don't want to get too esoteric here, but I can, if you want me to, is that we have all this content, I'm a therapist, I'm a podcaster. I am, I'm a male. Right? All those things are true. Um, as I start crossing those off because , or as I help clients as well, they say I'm an alcoholic. That's helpful when you're driving past a bar, I'm an alcoholic to call yourself that, is it helpful when you get in a job interview? I say not, no. So, yeah. Or when you're in a grocery store, Hey, I'm an alcoholic. My name is Colt . No. So what I try to help people do is to , uh, differentiate from content that's content. And it's helpful when it is. And it's also like, it's helpful that I'm a therapist when I'm right, but it's not helpful. I'm a therapist when I'm at a grocery store and I'll start therapizing people, at least I hope therapy therapists don't do that. And, and so little by little I've come to this idea of it's called this self-actualize process or what I also like to call the Phoenix rising from the ashes, right? This constant edification I'm going here. Here's my homeostasis right now. Here's what I know is important to me East and New York and this area, that way, that metaphor, whether it's joining a band, I don't know, starting a new career. So I have to get outside of my comfort zone as I do that, I feel like I'm dying. It's super scary. But then I get stronger and I go here, it's another one. Right? And really at the, at the crux of all that, the middle of all that is this I am process is, and that's a full sentence. I am subject verb is being we're human beings. And something about our culture right now that I think is making us sick if you will. Um, if I may be so Frank and look , we need to, we need to be disciplined and have goals and all that, but we're constantly human doing it . And we're never actually being beside , as I say, stop and smell the roses, then it's, I mean , what , what are we doing, man? How are we, how are we going to actually enjoy this life and find that balance? So your question is huge. I don't know if I answered it Jonathan, but that's a start. I hope,

I think it's a phenomenally good answer. Uh, and I really like that metaphor cause it speaks , it speaks to me a lot of, you know, you have your, your volumes and general direction of East, but you have the , the destination of New York and not perfectly applies to even say this podcast of, okay. I think I want to start a podcast to say yes and do that . I'm going that direction. And, and like you're right. Going off at it . And it massively outside of your comfort zone, feel like you're dying rebar. Okay. I know, I know how the equipment works now. Okay. I've just interviewed my first guest. Okay. I've got my first download , you know, it's like, but then okay . But as, okay, this is all good. Okay. I've had a massive technical hitch. Okay. That's fine. I've fixed it. And I've learned this, this constant up and dine , um, which translates really well to what you said even earlier, if there's no straight lines, it's a very messy process. There's no, you know, there's no perfect way to do it as your own journey. And like, yeah. I thought that spoke to me a lot as well. I like as well, what you said by , um, the I'm gonna butcher it here. It was like the, I am statement. Um, you know, I know certainly when I was in therapy , um, that , you know, the, I adjusted my core belief and uh, to a more positive one and it was, I am perfectly able, so I could certainly in future episodes, I can go into why that's my new core belief and you know, for this one , that's my new core belief that, you know, I'm competent and that, you know, I, you know, I'm perfectly able to do all these things that I set my mind to rather than just assuming they're potentially going to fail. Yeah . But I liked, but I liked what you said there in the, you know, I am and , you know, adjective and verb. So maybe that's even a challenge we could put to the audience. What is your positive? I am statement and let us know in the socials. And yeah, that's a , that's a little bit of audience participation as well, because it's all good as charting , but unless you , the audience actually put what, you know , Cole and his saying , uh, and the practice then, you know, it's all very well good hearing it, but you need to take messy action, you know, it's

Yeah . In a call to action to , he wrote that messy action . Look, this is I'm coming from the space of acceptance and commitment therapy. Right. So this is about doing what works, right. Actually having a life worth living at least that let alone fulfilling and happy. And so like, let's do what works and if affirmations work great, like I'm a perfectly able person is what you said, right? Yeah. Um, I say something to myself, I'm confident, competent, effective, and efficient. I say to myself all the time, because I come from a place where I didn't think that, and that is helpful. And at the same time , um , it can become draining if we're constantly putting all these, I got to think positive. I got to think positive. It turns into like a fight. Right. And so one of the things I do is I say use that when it's helpful and it's helpful a lot. And I am period is a complete sentence. So it's also a challenge just to be, because sometimes we know for sure as you're doing this podcast, Jonathan, having you found times when you're not competent or not are not, are not perfectly able, like, I don't know what I'm doing here. And that's okay. And that's okay. And that's this process of allowing yourself to zigzag , allowing yourself to be, to be to , I am through a process I've been, I've been swimming , um , all summer here in LA. Well, it's not summer anymore, but I did. And I was a Marine. I was not supposed to be. I I'm just barely competent at swimming. Um, I've never been great swimmer. I have a high bone density and I made it a challenge. I said, you know what? My direction of this is my direction of East. I want to become more , uh, healthy and competent and in this area of my health. And so my goal is to swim a thousand yards in this, in the ocean to be aligned with that value. And under this 13 minutes, whatever it was. And man, I , I, I was scared every moment of doing it because I, not because I'm a bad swimmer because of sharks. I'll be honest. I, and they found a 17 foot long shark in that same Bay. I was swimming in. Um, yeah, there was a lot. Yeah. Anyway, it was scary, man. And I kept quoting that quote from Alan Watts that said , um, to live, I must have faith. I must trust myself to the totally on known and that right there, that being trusting myself to life. And look, I might get eaten by a shark. No I didn't. And it's very unlikely actually. It's just, that might happen. And I can still be in life and do the things that matter to me. And so I am is a complete sentence and I want to challenge people to , to be, and when it's necessary and helpful to use those positive information too , I , I am perfectly able. That's that's beautiful, man. So

Yeah, I mean, that's, I have a heard of Alan Watts. I do keep meaning to actually read his books and his various things. I've seen a couple of great quotes of him and I keep going. I need to read that guy .

Yeah. He's he's uh , he's interesting, man. I highly recommend him. Yeah. He's liberating.

Oh yeah. A hundred . I can, I can imagine. So something I do want to have a child by is what self-care strategies do you recommend like daily routines and stuff like that for people? Because I think that we go like mental health is this kind of thing we put to the side. It's not really a priority. And then we wonder why we feel terrible. I'm not going to say consistently, but you know , you know, how do we, how do we maintain that , that bounds of consistent good mental health , uh, for whatever routines and basic self care that you could recommend.

I'll start with this reduce screen time.

I mean, you

Will watch the movie, the matrix. Yeah. When you ask me downtime. Yeah. This thing is turned into the matrix, man. Like we are scrolling, watch looking at Instagram models and the porn that you can look at just by a click is incredible. I mean, it's an , it's insane. How many distractions are at , just from this thing we're turning into cyborgs. And I don't look, I don't want to dig into this too much because it's , it's a wonderful tool. What, how amazing is this? And it's, we've got to watch to make sure that we don't become a tool to the tool. And I don't know, I've tried to stay away from being too critical about social media and about our phones, but the more I've dug into the research, the more that I've allowed myself to be a little more cynical about it because it's , it's getting pretty bad. And just from being a human being in the world, you can tell it's not that healthy, what has turned into. So I would make a , an attempt finding an accountability partner use that , um, that tool on iPhones or whatever your smartphone device is, where it shows you how much screen time are you using and try to reduce that. And don't just try to reduce it, try to replace it with some healthy activities every day. Um, that might mean, okay, I know that reading would be good for me. So let me actually let me actually do that. Um, even if it means I'm going to reduce my screen time by 10 minutes a day, let's just start there, start so small. So when it comes to self care in general, take baby steps, because if you can, consistently people struggle with being a man or woman of their word, just, just being consistent. I remember when I struggled to get back into working out, just started with doing a pull-up routine , um, sets of five every , uh, every other day. And just being consistent with that for a couple of months, I end up going back in the weight room and I've built upon and built upon and built upon it and just be consistent. The next thing I would say with that idea of reducing screen time and taking baby steps and making little small promises, easy to do, easy not to do is get your circadian rhythms in check. I mean, we live in a world where the sun never goes down lights, right? And we can video games. And I don't want to sound like the old man on the porch here, but we don't know how to sleep at anymore. And it's , um, it's so important to get your sleep right. And I'm talking eight hours have a consistent schedule. This is my bedtime. This is my wake time. Well, that's so juvenile that's for kids. Okay. And that's how we live for thousands of years by the sun, the sun goes down, I go to bed, the sun goes up, I get up. We don't have a sun anymore because of electricity and because of electronics, because all these distractions you need to discipline, you can choose to discipline . You don't have to do any of this. You can choose to discipline yourself to a sleep schedule and to make a consistent, and again, that's not easy. However, it's, it's so important. It's man. And I, I stopped drinking coffee just to keep myself that much more. Um, and I'm not saying you need to do that. It's personal choice. Just keep myself that much more honest with how, how , uh , rested I am and how I'm , how my sleep is. And I actually hired a coach to help me with self care for a while . And that was the first thing he started me with was getting my sleep right. And that made a huge difference. Um , going to bed at , uh, going to bed at 11, waking up at seven 30. And that's just, that's just treating your life like a business that's that's when I closed business. And that's when I opened business , um , other self care stuff . I mean the obvious stuff, right? I mean, exercise, just start small. Um , I think it's super important to make sure that we're not compensating and trying to , um, I mean , there's some great material out there right now. Some great, amazing motivational videos. Jocko's great. Right? Discipline, discipline equals freedom. Discipline equals freedom. Discipline equals freedom. It's great. It's wonderful. I would watch out for the trap of that though, and make sure that in the spirit of self care and being someone, not the hair, right? Like slow and steady wins the race. Yeah. Just win the day. Do the things that are necessary. The four or five things that you need to do in one day that move the needle forward of your goals. I did enough. Now I can relax. Now, can I have, now I can have the day that I would want create, start creating the day that you would want, not a schedule that you whip yourself with and you, you be rate yourself with, for not completing, have those four or five disciplines that get done every day and then find the thing and then go live your day, go hike the mountain. So I mean, obviously health and , and drink water, this stuff that we all know, we all fricking know what to do. If we were a life coach right now, we had to help someone get better. We know what they need to do. Do those things, treat yourself like the character in a video game. Kind of be the fly on the wall. Okay. It's time to get up now, right? Yeah . Okay. It's time to drink water. It's trying to have my meal. Um, and are you overworking yourself? That's something I struggle with a lot. I still struggle with, I have accountability. I was like, okay, cool. Are you overworking again? Are you trying to do too much? And um, because of the environment I grew up in, I constantly think that I'm going to, I constantly have to keep my eye on knowing myself and know that I'm going to try to put way too much on my plate to make up for lost time or to get people to love and like me. But at the end of the day, I got 11 like me. And if I don't have that right, then it's all for not,

Yeah. The thing you said right at the end there, the, the , um, example of working too much and , uh, that has always been a problem I have of working , uh, too much on my plate. And even with this podcast, it's like, I set myself at debt that, you know, I'm going to , uh , have this podcast up and running by , uh , January 4th as launch day. So like over Christmas, I've been working on this like wall five RS a day for hops, between interviews, between setting up all the social media channels, YouTube and various things like that. And , um, yeah, what you just said there is that I , I definitely could have , uh, in hindsight, God Don , maybe one or two hours a day and enjoyed the rest of my day because like, yes, I'm really glad I got this , um, podcast set up. I'm really glad that we're having this conversation right now and we have the ability to do it, but at the same time, I'm also, you know, it's Christmas time and there's been times where I just want to sit and relax. I'm like, I can't, because I've committed to this goal and committing to a goal is a great thing. But at the same time, there's the balance. And not something that I, I definitely know , I , in hindsight, going into this new year, I'll find that balance because yeah, I wouldn't say I'm not actually work quite hard, but almost to my detriment, perhaps. Um, so yeah, I really liked what you just said there. Um, some funny , I have heard a bite. The , I just wanted to get your opinion on health mindset. Describe that

Health mindset. Can you say a little more ,

Uh, just , um, as a part of the overall , uh, basic self care daily routines, and then I heard my health mindset is part of a part of that as well.

Um, I'm actually not familiar. What you mean? Is it like, is that like some sort of term health mindset,

Perhaps ? It just means healthy mindset. Yeah. From the us, just from the basic , um, that's just from the basic , uh, like stuff I've read on therapy and stuff, but that's all right. Something, something we can talk about, which everybody's familiar with in this one is stigma. So yeah. Why, why do you think there is stigma and where does that come from?

Uh , stigma. Yeah. It's it's well, first of all, let's define it. Right. Let's define our terms. Stigma is this negative notion about a subject or a entity, right. So when we're talking about mental health, certainly there is a negative notion based upon that. Um, certainly in my family, the stigma was , um, that's for crazy people. That's, that's for the lunatics. Lunatics are like mental health. Isn't something that normal people talk about. And we certainly don't talk about it. Um, men need to just suck it up and be, you know, be man and , uh, yeah, so feelings, we don't talk about our feelings. So stigma is huge when it comes to mental health, it's something that is going to keep you from actually opening up and dealing with things in a healthy way. So stigma can be actually pretty toxic and pretty unhealthy in a fact that it doesn't allow us to be verbalizing. What is true. And a lot of times it comes from communities , community that comes from , um, you know, you open up about your feelings and people will look at you like , uh, right. So it's understanding that stigma and finding people that are open. Well, first of all, the fact that we're talking about right here and we're open about it is a huge deal. I mean , um, are you familiar with any Facila

Yes. I've heard of them , but I'm not familiar with his work.

Yeah. He has a podcast and it is pretty good. It's pretty crass and pretty open and he's, and he doesn't seem like someone that would be open about his feelings, but he absolutely is. He talks about how he's been struggling with depression, his whole life, and he's dealt with that his whole entire life. And he's freaking open about it , man. And by him doing that, especially the character at his a stage and how many people look up to them and how many people follow his podcast , they are , uh, it's very inspiring and it really does help reduce stigma that someone at that caliber would open up about that. So, I mean, reducing stigma and overcoming stigma is, is a choice. It's really a process of being vulnerable enough to say, Hey, I'm struggling. I'm not doing okay. And some people will reject you and perpetuate that stigma. And that's unfortunate. And then again, there's people that will absolutely like that social worker that said, you're not weak for having these issues. You just need some tools. And , um, so really defeating stigma and is first of all, knowing what it is, and then little by little opening up about it and finding the people that will support you in what is true for you. This is true. And I need help. Um, same with you, right? Like I'm, I'm dealing with this. I need to see a therapist. And , um, so

Yeah, that's, that's really good. I know. Certainly , um, when I went to see a therapist six, seven years ago for mild depression, as it was diagnosed, I mean, like I was suffering for a long time needlessly. It just got to the point where route is silly. It got to the point where like, I was not in a good place and that , you know, I just, wasn't enjoying all the things I normally do and my relationship suffered and an alcohol , um , suffering NY . So the only thing I can do is ask for help and hopefully the suffering stops and which it did. And it got resolved very quickly because , you know, I was admonished to put the ego aside, put the pride aside and accept , you know, this is bigger than me, you know, I need, I need to, you know, it's, I finally sort of got Ryan to doing it because I was like, if I had a broken leg, I couldn't man up against a broken leg. I contract say, you know, this is fine. You know, you know, you keep trying to walk on a broken leg. It's not going to do you any favors , uh, as long you leave it, the worse it gets and the longer it's going to take to heal . So for me, in the end, again, it comes back to what I would have said to my 18 year old self and just like go to therapy sooner , you know? Um, and I really, really like what you're saying, because it's so relatable. It's so like we've all felt that pressure one way or another, whether it be peer pressure or the fear of judgment or whatever, and yeah. You know, it's , I think we're doing well as a society. I think nowadays , if, you know , you said to the people who care about G or I'm actually suffering from depression or anxiety, I think we're at that stage now where people will go, well , what can we do to help? But, you know, just as you said, there are people who will reject that and, you know, maintain that stigma. But then that could probably be a good filter for should people really be in my life. You know, it's like surround yourself with the people who have your best interests at heart. And, you know, I'm quite fortunate in , uh, I've got a lot of good friends and family that, you know, if I did say that, I'm sure they would all say, yep , we're here to support you. Uh, and I would hope that they would feel comfortable talking to me saying, I stayed , you know what, Mia , I am struggling a little bit. And it's like, well, I'm here for you, dude. You know? And , um, so yeah, I mean, I think for the most part we have gotten rid of stigma , uh, on a personal level, but I don't think we've gotten rid of the stigma of saying I'm seeing a therapist. Uh, I don't know what it's like in the States, but certainly over here and the UK , uh, Northern Ireland, we are quite, I want to say reserved, you know, it's not, you don't air your problems. You don't, you don't admit or you know, that, that things aren't quite as good as they could be. You know, it's the same conversations . We always have highs , fangs going, Oh , great, great hosts work. I, you know, working away, you know, working away. Yeah . Just working away , um, or that famous one or how you feeling tired, just tired, you know ? Um, so w w in your opinion, what can you, what can we do to further reduce this stigma, especially the right. Um , how do we normalize it to the point where saying I'm seeing a therapist is no different to saying I'm going to see the dentist or a doctor? Well,

It's a , it's a tough one. I don't know if I have the answer, but I have some opinions. And I think, I think one of the things I would like to say is that, yeah, in California, Southern California, where I live, it's people aren't going to like, be like, where did out, if you say I have a therapist, you know,

However,

It's still kind of weird, you know, I don't think, I don't know. And honestly, one of my critiques of my own field, if I may be so blunt, is that, look, I think there , I think it's going to be better to not try to do this journey on your own. It's going to be better to , to try to bounce some ideas off of somebody it's better to do that than not. And isolate, isolating is not the idea. We're social beings. We need each other. And so therapy can be an amazing option. I think, I think because it's such a , an important thing to do. You're going to therapist to get better, to feel better, to , to do more workable things in life.

And

You know, when you go see a dentist and their incompetence , like, Oh, screw that guy. I'm gonna go find another dentist. When you go see a therapist, it's so emotionally vulnerable to go do that. And you find someone that doesn't fit. I say, I say, going to the therapist, it's like trying on shoes. And sometimes they don't fit. It's not a good fit for you. And then it's okay . Therapy, stupid therapy is they don't know what they're doing. They don't really care. And that might actually be true. There might be someone in the therapy field they're just incompetent, but that doesn't mean that the next therapist down the street, wouldn't be a really good fit and really helpful for you. So I think it adds to this stigma that we're so quick to be , um, highly critical towards therapists. And I think it's for good reason. I think I get it because it costs money. It takes, it takes a high amount of vulnerability, but I wanted to say that, like, go try it a couple more interviews therapist before you just decide on one, go to this one, that one, this one, and figure out which one's the best fit. And then hire that person. They work for you, right? You're their customer. Like you hire them to help you. And maybe they're not a good fit. So I would say, be pickier on who your therapist is. Um , because when we just like, Oh, therapy doesn't work it's for the birds. That definitely adds to stigma because , I mean, how many therapists did you actually try? Let's, let's start there. Um , just like a dentist, it's like a lawyer, just like, you know, a car. You don't just buy the first one you see, you know, because the car could be a lemon or it could just be the fact that it wasn't a good fit.

Yeah. That's really interesting. I've actually never heard it that way. Interview your therapists. Don't be, you know, must've met the , um, I think, I think the reason that it's so hard to, to potentially do something that is you're right, it's a very emotionally vulnerable place to be. Um, and you know, you seldom would open up to your doctor like that hurt your dentist if I can never work . But you know, it's quite a unique situation when you are bearing your soul to someone and you're a hundred percent, right. It needs to be the right person. It needs to be a good fit. Uh, I was quite fortunate that the therapist I have , uh, is just great , like fantastic. Um, yeah, really, really good to regret team. Um, but staying on the subject of therapy, you know, I don't want to talk about the par that therapy has to really change lives and, you know, taking that first step into it is always terrifying. Um , you know , you're, you're peeling back the curtain and letting someone see the real you, and your real thoughts and emotions and not the Instagram Fiddler that you put up. Um, and especially if it's the first time you're ever doing it, you know? Um, so take us through what , in your opinion, you know, the par that therapy has to change lives.

Yeah. Well, it absolutely can, especially if you find the right fit, let's assume you actually found the right fit, right. You didn't just take the first one because it's the first, it's the closest therapist, your house. And if that does happen, they're a good fit. Awesome. Like in your case. So assuming it's a good fit , um, therapy can absolutely change your life because any therapist that's worth their salt is going to, first of all, help you understand yourself, they're going to help you understand, Oh, that's why I am. Why that's , that's why I do that. Right. And the more you understand that, again, the more you can overcome it, you can know who you are, know your patterns, know your knee-jerk reactions and therefore start creating a plan to overcome it. Another thing that's. So life-changing is not only that, but exposure therapy. I mean, that is what I specialize in. You know, if you have a snake phobia and you're afraid of a snake, you can literally overcome that phobia in about three hours. And the way we would do that is we have a consenting individual that decides, okay, I want to get overcome the snake phobia, okay. Sign the dotted line, let's get through this thing. And we would have them enter a room with a non poisonous snake, and I would hold it for instance. And they would walk in the room and they're crying. They're like, Oh , this is terrible. And I'm like, okay, walk out. I'd walk out about five minutes to come back in and get a little closer. They're crying, they're crying. They go out by the end of three hours, you're holding the snake that named it Henry. And they don't have a stand and they don't have a snake phobia anymore. It's , it's incredible. It's, it's almost miraculous. Um, same with , uh, death anxieties. And I'm afraid of elevators. I'm afraid of Heights. Literally. I will take clients. I'm afraid of social interactions. I've taken clients outside and we've walked around and talk to random strangers just to show them that they're not going to die because fear tells us that we can't handle it. But every time you overcome the thing that you fear, you find I can handle it. So feel the fear and do it anyway. So a good therapist is going to, or it depends on what your situations are, right? It's depression and anxiety, whatever it is they're going to help you show that you can handle it, that you can feel the fear and do it anyway. And that's how you capitalize. That's how you grow as a person. And that's w that's why it's therapeutic. It's therapeutic. I feel better. I feel stronger because within this, these issues that I have, cause I'm a human being. I have issues. I'm not perfect. I don't have everything altogether. I can become stronger in the context of that. So maybe it doesn't ever get easier, but I become stronger regardless of the things I struggle with. And that's powerful, man. And, and obviously the flip side of that would be a therapist that constantly tries to protect you and constantly tries to keep you from feeling like you're in danger. No, no, no. That's not therapy. So again, assuming it's a competent therapist and it's a therapist that fits for you, they're going to actively help you handle the things that you're afraid of expanding into. Because again, if you know thyself, you know your homeostasis, anytime you try to get out of that, you want to self-sabotage and keep it simple right here. Therapist's like, no, no, no, no. Let's take some baby steps and go , no, no, no, let's go, let's go. You said you would do that this week. And the next week you build upon that next week and build upon that. And next thing you know, you're a whole nother person. You came and recognized the, you , that was you a year ago, depending on what you're in therapy for. Of course. So, so again, just knowing thyself, knowing who you are, so you can overcome that and then finding that way to exercise courage and commit yourself to the actions that are aligned with your values. Little by little over and over. And so therapy can be so freaking powerful, man. Yeah.

Michael ally , that just blew my mind really? That just like, even like, like the exposure therapy, you know, somebody coming into the room for three hours , they are, they're holding a snake and you know, for goodness sake, the point going on and bought a pet snake or something , um, they , um, the examples , well, it really stood out to me that you just said was that perhaps, you know, the phobia or the thing that you're really struggling with will always stay the same, but you'll get stronger. That one there that was like, wow, like, you know, cause I think people will use that excuse of , you know, Oh , I'll never get over this or this, this pan will be always as bad as this. I was like, okay, if I , if that's the constant, what can change you? And you know, through that, you know, taking one baby step at a time, you become stronger and stronger and stronger. So yeah, whatever the thing is, it's there, but it's, don't the master of your life you are. And you know , that you've become stronger and stronger and stronger to the point where you go. Yeah, that was a part of my life or it is , but it plays such an insignificant role that it doesn't bother me anymore. I mean, yeah, just everything you said in that little block, my mind was going, Whoa,

Buddha. I mean, this is what the religious people have always said is what philosophers always said. I mean, honestly, to be honest, I think one of the reasons why sometimes psychology gets a bad rap is because sometimes we're not philosophical enough. I certainly am. And I think that's why I've been so helpful to my clients is because I come from , I come from a philosophical angle, a metaphysical angle, and then I help people become the hero of their own story. And it's like, dude, that dragon, there's always going to be a dragon and what you want to never be afraid of a dragon. You're not going to not be afraid of a dragon. The battle must be fought in new each day. And on the field of itself, there's a Knight and a dragon. You were the night resistance as the dragon. The battle must be fought in new each day that Steven Pressfield has said that. And so I , I, I try to tell clients, Hey, when you, when your trauma erases from your memory one day, I'm going to say, amen, hallelujah. Or when it's quieter one day, then there's other days, okay, we'll take that. But let's not even count on it going away. Let's count on you getting stronger one day at a time so that you become so strong that that suffering becomes irrelevant. Buddha said, life is suffering. However, if that's default, then if you can make your life so meaningful, if you can become so strong, it makes the suffering irrelevant. So yeah . I'm glad that resonated with you.

Yeah. A hundred percent. I really liked that. What you just said as well. Another , um, dragon , um, story that I think Jordan Peterson said, this was the, you know, and I'm going to butcher his quote basically that , you know, the dragon is always there, but it's better to go to its layer and deal with it before it comes to your village, you know? Oh yeah. You keep putting off that , that therapy that you need, or you keep putting off, you know, the thing that you need to deal with, quite frankly, it's going to show up in your life and it's going to ruin it. It's going to cause a lot of Harvick, unnecessary pain and suffering. So as scary as it is as bad , or just to get on the field of battle, fear , set , charge it, deal with it, beat it back for another day or until the point where that dragon is not just, it's like, w w what is this thing? I'm not even bothered by it. You know, it's there, it's never going away. So just conquer it, you know? Yeah . So I really liked that. Um, you talked a little bit about finding the right therapist and one that's going to fit. How do you do that? How do you find a therapist that is a competent , uh, and B will work with you as a team to get, to get you for your goals? Won't protect you as you have . I got that, right. That, you know, they're not there to protect you, then they need to expose you so to speak to your , your fears. Um, so what do you look for? Um, and why is finding any old therapist detrimental?

Yeah. Finding any old therapist could actually do more harm than good in some cases, because it can be enabling like they are there too . I mean, we can all get into a field because we have the great intentions. And then we end up being kind of like, all right, here's another person. And I'm going to help them feel validated all day. And if you've never been validated, that can be very healing and powerful. Don't get me wrong. Like, okay, now there's someone finding and listening to me my whole life, no one listens, no one, you know? So that can be very powerful. But if that's all the therapy, is it just, I'm going to validate you all day and not help you push you towards your edge and push you towards , um, well maybe your edge is being, I am like we were talking about just being , um , maybe your eye , maybe it means , um, you actually go in towards that woman that you've always wanted to date, but you don't think you're worthy. Well, let's actually make a plan that you actually do that. Right. But if we're not doing that in therapy, then when we do in man, so I would say, look out for that. And even in one way to vet for these things is to, like I said earlier, actually interview them, ask them what their , um, what their school of thought is, what, what their methodology is, what is, what are they doing in therapy? And if cat caught their tongue, that's a sign. And if you're a caretaker, don't excuse that. Say, okay, thank you. I , um , I think I'm gonna go a different direction or just tell him , I'll call you back. I'll call you back. Which should , we all know what that means. Uh, so I would say, do your homework before, I would say, definitely look for someone that is familiar with , um, the exposure therapies, right? The analytics, someone that is, because if they're , if they are actually there to help you overcome PTSD and , uh , chronic depression and suicidality, I guarantee it's not going to be all about validation. It's going to be a lot about becoming stronger in the face of that. And don't set them up with that answer. See if they give you that answer, don't say, Hey , are you here to help me get stronger? Don't say that, ask them. So what is your philosophy on helping me get better? Right? And when you challenge some therapists , some of them will get defensive. Yeah. There's, there's a sign to walk away. If they're getting defensive, then they're not there to actually be a team with you. They , they may actually be there to, to tell you that you know, that they know best for you. And let me tell you a therapist that says, they know you better than, you know, you run get away , run. Um , they can only give you your best, their best guests. The job of a therapist is to legitimately at the end of the day, to help remove obstacles. So, you know, I'm noticing this, Jonathan , I'm noticing that whenever I bring this up, you just say, I don't know all the time, but I'm wondering how I don't know, serves you to stay the same versus helps you become a better version of you. That's an obstacle. I hear all the time. I don't know. I don't know. Well, what if you stopped saying, I don't know. And you actually try to figure out what the issue actually is, right? That's an obstacle that has helped you remove.

Yeah. But it is , uh , yeah. Well , well , well spotted . I will have , I actually, I don't , I don't,

I don't actually, I've never heard you say that. I'm just using that as an example.

Yeah. I, I have said that before. I used to be really bad at it. I'm not nowhere near as bad as I was, but yeah. But yeah, it's , it's just, that's , that's why it's like pure chance. You just hop in the straw and that I was like, go Steve , read my mind. I'm not clairvoyant. No , like I said, I don't know you better than, you know, you, I just made a guess. No .

Uh , but yes. Um, so I would say, I would say that it could definitely be detrimental and to choose a therapist and interview them , um, means that you've done your homework and don't be afraid to put them on the spot. This is their fricking job, man. Like they, if they're not competent, if they're not going to give you what you need fine. And by the way, maybe a therapist gave you what you needed for the first five or six weeks. And you evolved enough through that, that now it's time to , um, retire them as your therapists and hire new therapists. You grew out of them because they're there to help you with that issue. But they can't really help you to this next issue because they don't have this skills for whatever reason. That's just not their area of expertise. So for instance, I don't think I'd be very good at , um , let me think, EMDR, you know what that is? I'm afraid not, no. Yeah. I'm afraid. Not either. Cause I don't know. I'm not, I'm not into it's it's essentially helping it's eye movement, desensitization therapy, and I don't know much about it, but that's just, cause I don't know. So I'm not your therapist. If you, if you really believe in that form of therapy, it's kind of like a hypnosis type of therapy. If you will. I'm just not into that. I'm not, I'm not trained in that area, so I'm not into hypnotism. So go to someone else that is into that. I'm more into the pragmatics into helping you become a better version of yourself , um, through committed actions, through alignment, with your values, through knowing who you really are being contact with the present moment, diffusing from thoughts and accepting the pain and the discomfort through all of that.

Wow. That is a , that's pretty good. Something that surprised me there was , um, that you can grow , grow a therapist that you know, that they they've helped you with this stage of healing. Okay. Now it's time to move on to the next one. I, I always fought with a therapist, right? That's it. You're with them until you're two you're sorted. So to speak if that's the correct way to put it or not even sorted, but you know, you're, you're a little bit better than you were. So that's an interesting one that you can, I grow a therapist. Um, I think that will catch a lot of people by surprise.

Yeah. I think you, you absolutely. Can't like you cannot grow an accountant. They've helped you with this part of your business for so long, but now you're now you're big time and now you need to take it to another level and they can't help you in that area. So I think, I think a hundred percent, I mean, you're not married to them and again, you hired them and if you were in there for a specific issue like depression and they've helped you through that. Great. But if they're not very good at helping you with romantic relationships, move on, like, why are you seeing them still? They're not, they're just like, Oh yeah, honey, just be yourself. Just be yourself, honey. Say , okay, I can't really help me with this. So that's just like, let me go find a marriage and family therapist that helps people with relationships all day long. That can help me with that. And that's totally reasonable. You're not stuck with a therapist and look, if they get their feelings hurt, that's not, they trying not to. And if they get, if they get their feelings hurt and take it personally, then good riddance, it sounded to move on.

Yeah. That's so very interesting perspective on that one. Uh , so something else I want to have a chat about and greater context of mental health is this notion of interpersonal effectiveness nine I've heard of it. Have no idea what it is. So please for my sake and the audience's sake , please do a little bit.

Okay. So kind of going back to that tennis court metaphor, right. Um, being in a situation that works and you're actually getting what you want and need out of a relationship out of relationships in general, like right now I would say our interaction is working, isn't it? Yeah. Like we're, we're we have a rhythm here. Um , it doesn't seem like we're tense with each other. Right. We're being effective interpersonally. So there's this idea of co-dependence where you are constantly Pauling . You're constantly , um, enabling another person. You're you're not really a self. Right. And that's, you're elusive . And then there's the other side of that counter dependency where you are that risk being too narcissistic, right? You're, you're hyper independent that, you know, you don't care about people's feelings, right? So one side you don't care about people's feelings and their side. You care about people's feelings so much that you put yourself on the back burner, right? We're trying to find this middle ground where we're interdependent, where we are balancing, caring about others and also caring about ourselves. Um , making sure that we aren't, we have our bottom line, I'm not going to put up with this. However, I recognize that you have feelings and I care about you still. So I would start with that. Just this understanding that the goal is interdependence, finding that fine, fine line, that balance, and then getting what you want is so important. I mean, if you don't ask for it asking, you shall receive, as Jesus said, right? Like if you're not asking the , you won't get it. And so, and if you're trying to lay down some boundaries or some new ways of doing things or asking for a raise and you don't know how to be effective and to personally with another person, then no, one's going to come and give you a Lamborghini, man. No one's going to come in and , and no, no. Girl's going to come to your door and say, I'm your perfect girlfriend that you've been looking for. You got to learn how to ask for what you need, what you want and, and be willing to grow with Selma . Because even if you find the perfect girlfriend , um , you're going to have to know how to get what you want across time through honesty and through straightforwardness. And so one tool that I really, really love, and maybe we can put it in the description of this video or get a link or something to the PDF of this is called the acronym. Dear man. And not dear man, but dear man, like D E a R M a N. And maybe it'd be helpful if I , if I walk through this right now. Yeah, absolutely. So dear man stands for describe express assert reinforced, stay mindful, appear confident and negotiate. So the first part of the D's describe , describe the situation. Express is expressing how I feel a is assert. So I'm going to cert what I want. I would like blink RS , the reinforcement, the positive reinforcement for delivering what I want or the negative reinforcement for not delivering what I want. The M is mindful, stay mindful, be mindful of attacks. People will start attacking you when you ask her what she wants sometimes, or be a broken record, no matter what they say, go back to the eight . Don't get lost in the weeds. They'll try to distract you and get you off course, go back to the , the cert. I would like blink . And then the AA after mindfulness or mindful is a peer confident. Don't be looking at your feet when you asked for something that you need. Um, even if you had to fake it, stand up straight and then, and be willing to negotiate. Depends. Depends on what it is of course, but be willing to negotiate. So , um, I have , uh , I have a boss that's uh , in fact let's role play this. Are you cool with that? Yeah,

That a bit of fun. Never done . Listen to podcast .

Okay. So I'm your, I'm your employee? You're my employer. Um, just berate me please.

Cool. I think you're useless. And you on the verge of firing you.

Okay. So this I'm going to handle this and I want you to be kind of a pest about this. Don't just roll over from me. Okay, Jonathan. Okay. So you just said that was my bus , uh , boss. You are yelling at me. So the first thing I did was I just described, right. I didn't go into my hole . In fact, let's hold off the rope line real quick and explain this. Yeah . So on a scribe, I don't, I don't go on this whole tangent about like when my dad yelled at me and called me useless. Why that sucks and why this is triggering me. No , no , don't do that. Don't do any childhood. Nothing. Just describe the situation, boss. You're yelling at you . You're you're demeaning me right now.

Yeah. I feel like it. And I think I'm entitled to do it . I'm your boss.

Hold off on the roll plan real quick. I just wanna explain this real quick. Sorry. I got ahead of myself on the role play , what I would go to . And then when I would go to the express, I would say, I would say like, just how I feel. I feel hurt, right? Yeah. And then, and then the AA is like, I would like blank and then the reinforce negotiate. Right. So anyway, yeah. Let's start with the rope line. So you'd say , go ahead and say it again

And again . Um , Colt , I think you're useless and I don't like you and I'm on the verge of firing you

A boss. I , wow. You're speaking to me in a very demeaning way. I feel pretty uncomfortable about that. I would like you to tell me what you need moving forward and not demean me. If you can do that. I think I'd be a really much more effective worker here and I'd get you what you want. And also I love continuing working here. Can you do that?

Well, I I'm your boss and you know what I say goes and um, I , I still don't like you ,

Um, boss, I would like that. You would tell me what your standards are so I can adhere to them. And I would like that you didn't talk to me in a demeaning way. Can you do that?

Um, well my standards, you , you can't meet them and uh, I'm your boss . I can speak to you whatever way I like

Boss. I'd I'd appreciate it. If you could tell me what your standards are so I could adhere to them. Cause I'd love to do that. And I would appreciate if you didn't talk to meaning to me anymore , can you do that?

I'm sorry, dude. That's so disarming. Like, it's really hard to like, it's really hard to be nasty to you.

No, it's okay. Do you see how I keep going back to that? Assert? Yeah, it's amazing. Like you could even start saying something like , uh , he's watched the game last night. Okay, cool. Cool, cool. Yeah, whatever. Anyway, you suck. But , um , did you watch the game last night? Call ? Yeah, I wasn't a great boss. I did watch the game, but anyway, we were talking about this. I would like you to speak to me in a respectful way and just tell me what your standards are so I can adhere to them. Can you do that? You just keep going back, be become a broken record. This works wonders. This works so many wonders, man. It's amazing how effective people are when they can just learn to repeat themselves. It sounds so cool because we get so easy off track within when we're in an interpersonal relationship. There's so much anxiety there so we can get pulled off track easily. What, what is the outcome that I want? Always remind yourself, what is the outcome I want, I want to be spoken to in a respectful manner and I want to know what the standards are. Okay. Right. Or maybe the outcome is I want to raise. I want to get paid $30 an hour in us dollars. Okay. That's my outcome . It's not, well , we'll call this out in the other blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Maybe it's not fair. Oh, I get, I get it. Can I get a raise? What ? I would like a , raise a $30 an hour about a raise of 30. Just keep coming back, coming back. No matter what they say, you validate them. You're not being a smart. You don't ignore what they say. In fact, they might even say, well, you just, you're not performing at the level that we want you to. You know what, maybe, maybe you're right. Maybe I'm not at the level you want me to. And I'd definitely like to work on that anyway. I would like a raise of $30 an hour. Can you do that? So you've Al you can, you don't even argue. You just validate and you ignore tax. We keep bumping up .

Um , where was this? When I was in school?

I know, right? Dear man.

Yeah. Dear man , I will , uh , I'm going to write the acronym down at the end of this episode . That was fantastic. So yeah , I don't know if you've, if, if in the process of this, you've probably already answered it with , with the acronym of the Vermont , but I love the comparison Umea between like being narcissistic to the point of, I don't care what you think and being, and putting your own mental health and your own self on the back burner and dignity and self-respect for the sake of pleasing others and making sure others are happy . How , how do we cope ? Can we practice? Or what habits can we do? Or what can we train ourselves to do in such a way that we get into that nice middle groin ? Like we, we find that balance on interpersonal effectiveness. Uh , we'll obviously swing every so often, too far left too far. Right. But how do we recalibrate ourselves and get back to that sweet spot of interpersonal effectiveness?

My mentor, she's a rather religious. And she says, nobody, but my Lord, Jesus Christ can be right there in the middle. So unless you're Jesus, I guess it's kind of hard. No, I think it's , uh, just self-awareness and being very honest with yourself and finding people that you can actually trust because you don't want to be asking feedback from Joe across the street when they're probably just going to give you, I don't know, find people that you actually trust that can let you know and give you feedback because a lot of times when you, when I'm being independent and when I'm caring for myself and not being , uh , too codependent , uh, people can get upset about that, but really I'm being healthy, but people can be upset that I'm not like being codependent like them. So that's, that's that's feedback you don't really want to listen to. And then sometimes , um, obviously if everyone's used to you being kind of like this narcissistic , um, and you start trying to find the middle ground, they're like, well, who's going to lead us now. Someone's got to like, hold the line and be a jerk where you see you being an, come on, be BB that jerk , like, you know, so be the , be the guy doesn't care about anyone's feelings. So it's , it's, it's hard to find people that can really give you clear feedback. And at the end of the day, it's you, that has to be honest with you. And because you're constantly trying to figure out what is going to work for me, what doesn't work for me. Right. We got to keep that line clear. We've got to know like, where's my bottom line. And then as we figure out what our bottom line is, it's a process and we're constantly evolving as humans. Like what was yesterday's amazing insight could be tomorrow's is like, what was my thing that was important to me as I've matured, I've realized, you know what, that's not as important to me as it used to be. So it says process of maturation and , and growing

And being willing to be open and,

And all those things. And then trying to, I guess I would say it's, it's this find people that you can trust, be honest with yourself journal and it's, there's no real magic pill here with that. Unfortunately.

Yeah. I like what you said there, and that there's no magic pill. There's no silver bullet. It's just hard work, but it's, you that's gotta do the hard work . You got to take personal responsibility. And I also like what you said with this, with the example of the , the narcissist and, you know, suddenly you do, you do suddenly move into the middle ground and people like, well, we need a leader and we need that. And I feel that that comes full circle back to an earlier part of the episode of growing out of the old rules that you had become accustomed to certainly in like , uh , either a dysfunctional family or a functional family, but, you know, you had a role and suddenly you've realized that this, the role you're in is causing very negative effects on your life. And that's great if you suddenly do recognize, right, I need to change. And it's part of that evil moving to the middle grind is part of your evolution , um , to become a better person. And I like what you said, we're quite , you know, truthful there, and there will be, there will be pushback because people, I think don't like change, even if you're, even if you're pardon the French and, people are familiar with you being an. So it's like, well, actually he's cropped he's changed. So this is to makes me feel uncomfortable. He's being nice to me, but this is a change that, you know, I'm uncomfortable with. It's , it's weird. And you know, there's always going to be pushback regardless. And I really like, I really like that example you said. Um, but something that I also want to have a shot by and not is, is that for a lot of this conversation, we've talked about what people have done to us and I'm not , um, you know, taking away, you know, the way of that. Some people have done things to me, undoubtedly to you. Everybody has had something terrible done to them at the hands of somebody else. But then I feel that we end up becoming our own worst enemy. Like we , we, we become our own worst critic. So how do you get out of your own way? Once the bullies have gone, once the toxic relationship has ended once you are independent , uh , and you know , independent, but be your own person in the relationship, even if you're in a relationship, but how do you get out of your own way once, once the trauma or the abuse stops or whatever, how do you, how do you get out of your own way and on your way to healing,

Do you mind providing me an example?

Um, so for example , um, someone who is say badly bullied in skill , let's say, okay, right. So they, they leave skill, but they no longer have physical contact with the bullies. But because they've been bullied for years, they've been conditioned to believe that certain things by themselves or to P have in a certain way. And so they're no longer part of that toxic environment, but they're bringing the environment with them. So how do you, so you don't need a bully and in a weird way, you're your own bully because you tell yourself negative things about you. You say I'm an idiot or I'm useless, or what's the point of me even being here or insert, insert self-critical fault, probably be , how do you go your own way?

Okay, I got it. So this is, this is a great, this, I love this. And my answer is metaphors. I use metaphors all the time, some of the great, great greatest teachers in history used metaphors and parables and , um, analogies. Right? So I think what I would do is used, first of all, is the, my bus metaphor. So you're driving around, you're the, you're the driver of your bus, right? And you have all these passengers on your bus, the bullies aren't really around anymore, but the bullies of your conditioning are, they're still in your head. Right. And I use that as the you're , you're trying to drive your way through life and trying to get to the areas of your life that you want to get to. And these, these passengers on your bus, or just like, you know, you're, you're a piece of crap. You're, you're ugly. You're not worthwhile. You'll never do anything. Right. And you know, you're, you're constantly letting them be rate you and distract you from driving. Right. And so, or you try to kick them off your bus. But the problem with that is that they get back on the next stop. Right. And they say, go left, go left, go right. Go right. Go straight. Right. And then you're still, so you're either fighting with them constantly, which doesn't help you drive to where you want to go, or you're constantly , um, obeying them. And do you have a book with you by chance? I'm going to do something here?

Uh, I do actually have a book from a good friend of mine. Yeah .

So people on the podcast, aren't gonna hear this, but people on YouTube are gonna see this. Right. So this is what we do all the time. Uh let's. Let's call it , um, what we want to call it. Social anxiety when it comes to bullies, right? Yeah. Okay . Let's call it that. Yeah . So this is what we try to do. Um, sometimes we try to fight it. Right. We try to push that away from us. If you take that book, you push that away from me with both hands, right? Like, and you just push, push, push, come on, Jonathan, push harder, man. Push that book away from you. Come on, man. Get rid of that thing. Eventually your arms get tired. Right. It's tiring. Yeah. So then we're like, okay, I'm not going to fight these bullies in my head anymore. I'm not going to fight these, these problems as depression man anymore. And then we give into it. So put that book in front of your face. Yeah . And how , how has the view, Jonathan, quite frankly, it's terrible. Yeah. You just give into the bullies and you just start beating yourself up. Either fighting it or you're giving into it, fighting it, giving into it. And that those solutions, you can keep doing that. And some people are pretty good at fighting. Um, those things that keep getting in their way, or they just give back into them. And that sucks too. My solution is let's take this with us. Put that book underneath your arm. It's probably not going anywhere. Like I said, we're getting stronger in the context of our conditioning. We're not trying to get rid of our conditioning. If you get rid of your conditioning. Great. I recommend if you're going to get rid of your conditioning, it's because you hold that thing and you go in the direction, regardless those passage passengers on your bus, they're probably not going anywhere. In fact, they're , they're going to, Hey you, thanks for Sharon . Thanks for Sharon. Swipe left. Thanks for sharing . Swipe left. Thanks for Sharon brain. Thanks for Sharon. And so my solution is again, exposure therapy. Like the snake. You, you start taking baby steps towards things that are important to you and you have accountability. You have people that can help you do that and you take baby steps across time and you recognize that it's probably not a great idea to fight those bullies in my head, even though the bullies aren't really out here anymore, they're still in my head. The stepdad right. Is constantly continuing to be rate me. Okay. I hear you. I know you think this is safe to stay in this normal bully myself area. Appreciate ya . And I'm going to March forward. I'm going to, I'm going to go left when you've been telling me to go, right? I'm gonna go right. When you've been telling me go left, I'm gonna go in the direction that matters to me. So again, no silver bullet here, but I would really encourage that people use that metaphor to start watching and diffusing from their mind, from their conditioning and watch that conditioning, right? Oh, there you are. Again. Hello darkness. My old friend. There it is. And now that I notice it, I can carry it instead of fighting it and giving into it and do what matters one day at a time.

That's really powerful. Yeah. I was wondering, I was wondering where we were going with the West there at the book and the phone and they're , they pushed to believe away at putting there , but that that's , that's really, really powerful. Yeah . Yeah. I mean, that's something that everybody can use between the Armana that that's, that's really, really good. Um,

Yeah. And that whole idea of, of Mariah's talking about the star going in your direction of East, that's why that's so important because if I, if I accept that this may not go away, the thing I've been trying to push away or think I give into, and if I just hold this, I can hold it and go in the direction that matters. Wow.

Yeah. See, this is the type of thing where I really needed a skill. Just one last note , one lesson a week. And like, here's how to like, you know, really take care of your mental health. Uh, but yeah , it's , I always learn at night than never.

And yeah, so

Trying for some time and the overarching theme of today that, you know, I'm getting, but also that I've heard by in circles is that of psychological flexibility. Um, and again, glad you're here because I know very little on the subject, but to me, that sounds great at being flexible and adaptable to, you know , whatever life throws your way. So can you just touch a bit more on , uh , psychological flexibility?

Yeah. It's been the theme of this whole talk. I mean, we've been talking about doing what works. So I have four questions that I typically ask people to help them do what works. Because a lot of times we, our life isn't working and we don't know why, and it helps us to break it down. So psychological flexibility at the end of the day is feeling the fear and doing any way , doing the things at work that are outside of our conditioning. So the four questions are the first one is one. What is important to you? What would make your life meaningful? What is something that just make, what would make you come alive or at least would make you feel like your life is worth living. Right. And let's say that is a , should I do this? Yes, I will. So let's say that's this direction, right? What's important to me. Right. That's number one. Second question is over here and that's in the direction of what doesn't work for you. That's on the right side for those who are listening, right? So the second question is what thoughts, feelings, emotions, sensations, AKA, private experiences, Jonathan , that only, you know, of cause it's, it's your private experiences, keep you from doing, what's important. That first question over here. And a lot of times it's, I'm not good enough. I'm not able , um, I'm scared, whatever it is. Right? So those private experiences I'm depressed. Right? And so that's question two and then question three, which is over here, still on the right side, which is in the direction of what you don't want. The third question is what things do you do to try to get rid of those private experiences? And a lot of times we drink, we look at porn, we procrastinate, we do anything that we can do. Watch Netflix all day long to numb out from the anxiety that comes with doing what's important for us. So I know this thing over here is meaningful for me. Um , starting a podcast, right? And over here I feel unworthy. I feel like no one would listen to it. Right. And then to avoid doing into, to numb those feelings, those anxieties, I overeat, I drink, I procrastinate. Right? And then the fourth question over here on top of the direction where we're going on the left is obviously those behaviors don't work. Those behaviors of dumbing out don't work to get you where you want to go. They certainly work in numbing you out. They work in health and helping you not feel the discomfort of life. That's a hundred percent true. But do they work on getting you closer to what you want? No. So what behaviors can I do one day at a time to get me to where I want to go, right? And so this is a psychological flexibility, like, okay. I , I work on my podcast and the marketing two hours a day. That's a behavior that I can do and quantify. And those are my tactics that can do. It's not too much. It's not too little. And I can do that one day at a time. And that's psychological flexibility because we have this idea in our head that, okay, I want to start a podcast for instance, but I have to feel comfortable. First. I have to have all my feelings in a row. I have to have, I have to believe in myself. No you don't. Because people all the time have all those doubts and have all those ways. They can numb those doubts out, but they decide, you know what? I'm not going to pay. I'm not going to make those things. Drive my bus. I'm not gonna allow those things to run my life. I can watch them. I can decide not to numb them out. I guess I have to refocus and do the things that matter. And then a lot of times, you know , if there's an overarching fifth question that encapsulates all that, what is that like? Was that experienced life? It's scary. Um, and I get stronger and the process, so that psychological flexibility in a nutshell, I don't know if that made sense. Cause I didn't have a paper in front of me. I kind of went through it in that way. But I think the overall arching idea made sense to help.

Yeah, no, I totally understand that. And I really liked one particular part of that where you said people feel like the half to have all their feelings in a row and they have to feel like they're like, they're not scared to do something, you know, insert scary situation. You know, when I feel brave or when I feel, you know, ready to do it, I'll do it. You know, I can preach from experience here. I have never felt ready to start a podcast. I'm still waiting . I'm still winging it. Totally. You know? And you know, I , I still get nervous every time I go for a chat with people, even if it's friends that I've known I've I was chatting with my cohost yesterday and I've known him for 10 years, but because it's not , he , I know he's agreed to come on my podcast. I felt nervous. I was like, why am I feeling nervous, chatting to my friend? You know? And it's like, well, I did it anyway because, because it's, it's growing, I'm getting stronger and more confident podcasting. I growing as a person as well. And that, that bit there , you just hit the nail on the head. So well with that, you know, people feel like they have to, they have to have it all figured. I people feel like they have to be in a certain mindset, like the , have to feel a certain way. And you know, they're waiting for perfection. It's like, no, don't do that. Take messy action. And like the results are just going to be incredible. So yeah, man , I've I , um, I've really, I really, really enjoyed this job . I've got a lot out of it. I must've found, I know the audience will too. I'm going to say one more thing on that. That's always good . Yeah, go ahead.

Yeah. It was just around this idea of psychological flexibility. It's like, man, this is a choice at the end of the day, this is a choice because I'm choosing to do what works I'm choosing to do the podcast. Anyway, courage is a choice. It's not a feeling like, you know, I'm choosing to act in a courageous way because I don't feel like I'm enough. I feel scared. I feel nervous. Okay. Well, you know what , I'm not going to choose to drink over it or to play video games and not myself out. I'm going to choose to do the thing that matters. And that's, that's the hero's journey. So just want to

You say that though . I also would love that . That is such a good way to add this episode. That was almost perfect. Um, folks, I know you'll have enjoyed this episode, but um, do get in contact on social media and let us know what you love the most about it. And uh, you know, tell us, you know, what you're going to do now with this information, tell us, you know, how you're going to get stronger. And , uh, we comfort so much in this incredible conversation that with , um, caught calming on , uh , at least once a quarter in the future , you know, is there something in particular you would like us to do a deep dive on or, you know, as are a part of this topic that you wish to see discussed? Uh, it's an entirely new topic. Um, I, I'm looking forward to all the conversations we're gonna have , um, on this quite frankly. So yes, folks , um, you can look forward to more of these conversations and thank you very much for tuning in and once again, cool. Thanks a million for coming on. I mean, that was just an incredible conversation and yeah, man. Yeah. I , uh, I look forward to, to several conversations we're going to have in the future, especially on mental health. I mean, from doesn't matter, whether you're a kid just leaving Eddy at teen , uh, leaving school at teen or whether you're, you know, retired and, you know, stuck somewhere and feeling lonely and, you know, insert every circumstance and age in between of those two examples, you know, we all need to take care of our mental health. And I think you're going to go a long way in helping my, at least my audience achieve that goal. Um, before we do go folks, do you have to , um, ask called that if they've enjoyed the content, which I'm sure they have, where can they find more of it and uh , all your content.

I have a podcast called Colt Gordon podcast , just my name's C O L T G O R D O N. And I talk about health relationships. I talk about overcoming PTSD, eating disorders, addictions, and everything we talked about right now, a psychological flexibility doing what matters choosing to do what matters. And I have an Instagram, a essentially just for my podcast called , uh , you can find me at Colt dot Gordon is my Instagram name. So that is how you can find me. And I also do coaching as well. So please reach out.

There you go, folks. Uh, I can fairly recommend that podcast as well. It's , uh , it's really nice to listen to, and, you know, especially if you're having a bad day and then cold comes on and give some therapy was dumb and you're like, Oh, all is well in the world. So yeah. So cool. Thanks again so much for coming on this podcast and thank you for agreeing to be a repeat guest as well. I look forward to the conversations we're going to have in the future.

Jonathan Bell. Thank you so much.

There you go, folks. That was my conversation with Colt . I hope you got a lot of value out of it and enjoyed it if he did , um, please do leave a rating and review. That really goes a long way in helping this podcast grow. And if you would like to see more content like this, then do please subscribe to all the various social media platforms , um, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and , uh, you can be kept up-to-date about future guests and , uh , podcast subjects. So once again, folks, thanks very much for tuning in. It's been a pleasure, all the best. Bye

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